Coyotes with Sara Tabatabai

Hello and welcome to Golden State naturalist, a podcast for anyone who's ever wondered did my neighbor's dog get out or did something else make these tracks? I'm Michelle Fullner and today I'll be talking with Saara Tabatabai from fer Nature Center in Sacramento. And we're going to get to so many coyote questions like How similar are they to wolves? Is one going to eat me? How can I tell if coyotes are living in an area where I'm hiking? Do they subsist on seatbelts and hairballs? Is their scat suggests? Did I see one downtown last week? What's the coyotes love life? Like? Can I have one as a pet? What is all this about coyotes and badgers being friends? And of course, how can you tell a coyotes tracks from a dogs? Before we get to that? Can I ask you to do something really quick? Okay, open up your podcast app only if you're not driving, of course and check to make sure you're subscribed to Golden State naturalist. If you're listening on Apple podcasts and you're already subscribed, you'll see a little checkmark in the top right corner. If you see that you're good. You're already subscribed and you don't need to do anything else. If you aren't subscribed, you'll see a little plus sign hit that and you'll see it turn into a checkmark and you won't miss an episode. Okay, next, if you're feeling like spreading sunshine and joy with your every movement and making California native flowers bloom out of your every footstep, at least in my mind, scroll down and tap on the stars to rate the podcast. You can also come back later and leave a review if you want to be one of my favorite people ever. And if you want even more golden state naturalist you can become a patron for just $4 a month. With that membership. You can get audio and video extras from my interviews in the fields behind the scenes information about how the podcast is made and what's coming up next. And more. Just the other night I posted a video of myself in my pajamas working on this episode after my kids went to bed Patreon helps me pay for things like the necessary tech to make a podcast and transportation costs for getting to and from interviews which are now happening all across the state thank you to everyone who became a patron and helped me meet my goal last month my first Patreon goal was $100 a month you all are amazing. The next goal is to cover the cost of making the podcast which averages out to about $250 a month. So if you want to help me reach that goal, and also access all of those cool extras, you can find me on Patreon at patreon.com/michelle Fullner. That's Michelle with two L's and Fullner is fu ll en er you can find me on social media at Golden State naturalist on both Instagram and Tiktok. My website is www dot Golden State naturalist.com. The other thing you can do that helps so much is to share this podcast with a friend who loves nature. It could be someone who loves gardening, who loves going for walks outdoors, who just loves to be outside or is just really into observing things, or maybe just someone who lives in California or maybe someone who's planning a trip to California sharing it with a buddy or two makes a huge difference as I'm an independent podcaster I make all of this totally on my own with basically no budget so it helps a ton think of one or two people you think would love this and send it their way. But now let's get to the episode because Saara is going to hit you with so many coyote facts. She got her bachelor's degree in environmental studies from UCLA and her master's degree in Environmental Conservation Education from NYU so she knows her stuff and is also great at telling you about the stuff she knows she's been working at Effie on nature center for almost five years and canids including wolves and coyotes have been her favorite animals for much longer. So without further ado, let's hear from Saara Tabatabai all about coyotes on Golden State naturalist.

Can you pronounce your last name for me?

ST

Sorry to have it on my tablet by tablet or by tablet? Nice Tabatabai Yes. Okay, rather than like an Aysen. At the end, it ends with an e sound.

So Saara and I had gotten to the middle of the nature study area, and we had started our conversation. I thought I was recording but I wasn't and then I ended up being so grateful that I wasn't recording because I had been saying her name wrong. So thankfully, she very gently corrected me and we started over, we meander down a little path. It's actually a little bit overcast today, which surprised me a lot. It is June 2, and I kind of expected it to be blazing today. So

ST

I'm very grateful for a little bit of cloud cover we have absolutely

we walk down here by the pond. I don't know if you'll be able to pick up the little running water sound but it's very soothing. And I was just asking Saara when you're new to an area what do you look for to be able to tell if there are coyotes there? So generally,

ST

the first thing you probably will look for is their scat. Generally, coyotes are extremely like elusive sort of secretive animals. Normally they will avoid humans not to say that they're a little bit habituated to people, they might try to approach there's kind of a low likelihood of you actually being attacked by a coyote. Because again, they're usually shy to them, we're more than potential predators. So usually you may not see them. But you know, every cell wants to walk, especially when you're walking through these trails, or any kind of wild space that doesn't have a lot of human visitors. For there to be a coyote kind of trotting around across a meadow or forest or something like that. But when you're not seeing them definitely scat the leaves behind things usually right, like in the middle of a trail or like an across the road. Yeah, because they are basically saying, This is my swag. This is my territory. You know, back off, there have been situations here at the nature center on the trails, were right on a fork of a trail, there was coyote Scout, you can generally tell this, it's the coyote because if you ever seen any kind of dog waste or dog scat for those who have a dog or just take care of a dog or anything like that, it has that sort of tube. I always like to say to sort of very, like California boy, a tubular shape. But it's a tubular shape and it tapers off and recharges in so it kind of gets like a little bigger. And then right where it was basically exiting the behind is where it kind of tapers off into like a little stringy look. And so the difference though between a dog Scout, like domesticated versus wild canines, is that it's going to look a lot differently in terms of texture. Oftentimes, when we feed our dogs, it's kibble or maybe we like home cooked a little something for them, but to some degree, it's been processed. And so when they eat it, it's something that's more easily digestible, and so come a lot smoother, maybe not as bumpy or things like that, because their stomachs are able to digest it a lot easier things in the wild, not always easily digestible.

So this conversation was super helpful to me because when I was a kid, I grew up in the hills of Napa Valley. And one of the places that I hiked around a lot was kind of up above Lake Berryessa. And when I would see coyote scat as a kid, it was full of these little red berries. And I thought that was just what coyote scat looked like. That was how I identified it. Now I'm pretty sure that was either Manzanita berries, or toycon berries, or maybe both, I'm not sure. But that was the food available to coyotes in that area, which was a mixed Chaparral ecosystem, as opposed to the riparian or river adjacent ecosystem in many parts of Sacramento. Here what I've noticed with coyote scat, it looks more just furry. So for a long time, I wasn't sure if it was coyote scat that I was looking at because it wasn't what I was used to. But Saara pointing out that one of the defining factors really is just that it looks super unprocessed was really helpful. Depending on where you live, or even just what time of year it is, it will probably look different. But look for these traits that she's talking about, including that unprocessed quality, but she'll also get a little bit more into the

ST

size and shape in just a minute. And same thing can happen with humans too. Like certain things are not always digestible, like corn, mushroom, and you look at your own scatter a good cob of corn, and you notice it's not always fully digestible. And you're kind of looking at that when you're looking for any kind of canine scat. So for Coyote, it could be like between three to five inches in length, usually like three fourths to an inch and a half in like diameter. So like with in a way. And so that's kind of the general size you're looking for. But sometimes it can be broken up people step on it, but there was this one point where I saw coyote Scott and it was on so full circle the story, it was at a crossroads here and this rails good. Okay, this guy I knew was kind of it's got a little bit of fur on it with a little bit of seeds and berries. I'm like, okay, cool, was with a school group. So definitely coyote Scout, this is what we're looking for, I see a little bit of fur, or hair from probably an animal a little bit of seed from when they eat plants. And then a couple days later, it's still there, it's a little bit more drier. A few days later, I see a fresh pile of scat a little bit bigger on top of the other one, and I had this feeling like I'm gonna do a hypothesis might do a educated guess here and think that this is probably another coyote probably bigger, probably older, and saying, No, I'm gonna stake my claim here. Because what's funny is and I just recently told a school rupess recently is that there's a lot of information within scat in terms of scent. And this is why dogs and you know, cats do oftentimes will greet each other sniffing each other's behind. A lot of you know, people are like, Oh my gosh, why did they do that? That's so silly. That's so gross. But they've get a lot of information doing that they get basically age. Basically sex is this person or that person? Is this animal at a reproductive stage or age and kind of like general when they say size and age, like, you know, what is this Coyote? Who is this Coyote? Right? So they'll use the basically the scat as well to be like, Alright, so my idea of this was maybe this other Coyote, maybe older, maybe bigger, was thinking, Hmm, so long as it's a younger Coyote. I can probably stick my claim here and hopefully win the fight. Now that's just a educated guess it could be the same coyote and it was older goes Nah, I'm just making sure y'all Now this is my stumbling down. Yeah.

QUESTION Because I think of like my dog yelling and peeing on everything, right? Like, did they mark their territory with urine time? Or is it just the scat

ST

is skinny both?

Okay, I got really curious and I went down a bit of a rabbit hole on this. So I found a website called coyote yips.com. And this is put together by Janet Kessler who studies and photographs and researches coyotes, particularly in urban environments, but also in general. on her website, she's got a post from January of 2013. That says urinating leaves all sorts of scents and messages which other coyotes or even other animals can pick up the urine. As we've seen from human dope testing contains traces of all sorts of hormones and pheromones excreted by the individual animal. These hormones and pheromones can indicate gender, age, stature, and maybe even meeting availability. Urine is used by animals for marking their territorial boundaries, but also for leaving other messages about their status. And then she goes into another interesting behavior. She says scraping or kicking the same spot that urinated on is a common behavior of dominant individuals. The act of scraping or kicking often signals leading status it to is a messaging behavior. Paws apparently also secrete sense scraping, besides leaving traces of scent from pause also help spread the scent of urine. And she's saying she's wondering if the scraping or kicking of the urine also allows them to carry the urine smell now on their paws further with them as they walk. So coyotes have all kinds of ways of marking their territory and communicating with each other when they're not actually physically around each other, which is

ST

super cool. That tends to have I think, a lingering physical form as well and probably more power I feel like you're in probably the stench might evaporate a lot faster. But of course, we may not smell as humans and basil can write, but I'm gonna assume that like scat has a longer lasting effect both visually and scent wise. You got both use both. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And

I was also going to ask I don't know if we'll see any because obviously, people walk on these trails. But what about their tracks?

ST

Yes. So there are very uncommon circumstances where I will see a coyote track oftentimes on our particular trails, it tends to be pretty dry and CND like dusty. So they do get kicked up pretty often. Usually the best time to look for tracks after a rainfall or a little bit near the river or near ponds where the dirt or the dust kind of got a little bit more mushy. But when you do see a coyote track, it's pretty cool. So as we know about dogs, they're not like felines, they can't retract claws, so their claws are always out. When it comes to coyotes, their tracks tend to usually have like two very distinct claw points in the middle of the toes and not so much on the fourth of our ones sometimes yes, if it's very deep. Whereas the you know, domesticated dogs are in like wolves and things like that as well. You'll also see like all four points the paws. Another thing is those clubs as we're going to be deeper, sharper, more pointed, because when it comes to domesticate dogs, people tend to like clip or file just to make sure they're not scratching or they've been walking on pavement and walking off. Exactly. So just normal wear and tear, whereas coyotes, they need those sharp sharp claws for like hunting and digging and things like that. So you'll see a more pointed sharp claw marks to their little paw prints plus a little bit on the smaller side. Can't remember the exact like size of them in terms of dimension and length and things like that. But you're basically looking for like, Okay, that looks like a dog print, but they're also a little bit more on the narrow side. They have a little bit more of a narrow, okay, ah, yeah, so pretty interesting. So if you see like a very big fat padded dog like foot, you're probably looking either at a domestic a dog, or possibly a wolf, depending on what area you're in. But here if you see something that looks very big wolf dog, like it's probably someone who walked their dog here.

Just a quick side note here that fer Nature Center and also many nature areas do not allow dogs on the trail. Now of course, it's okay for ADA service dogs to come on to trails. But if you're going to be planning a trip to a national park, you want to be aware because some places actually require you to get a permit even for your service dog. Now, the reason for this is that having dogs on trails really disrupts wildlife, but also it can be unsafe for the dog and the person because a lot of animals will see a dog as either a threat or as a prey item. Also, dogs can walk in things like tall grass that have ticks or poison oak or things like that, that you really don't want getting spread around and all of those potential dangers go not just for national parks, but also for places like Fe ja and a lot of trails. So if you need to bring your service dog on a trail, do a little bit of research, find out what the rules are for the area where you're going and if you need to get a permit or not before you go if you're just bringing a pet, make sure you're aware of the rules of the place that you're going and leave your dog at home or just bring your dog Have to an area where you know it's okay to bring dogs. I want to go like on a little adventure. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, let's go tromping around obviously we haven't seen on the trail yet. But let's see if we can find any spots that are maybe not super worn by humans if we can see any, any tracks or any scat that we can take a closer look at. Yeah,

ST

we can definitely just kind of winging it and see what's around.

Okay, so we were walking on the trail and right next to the trail, we found some scat,

ST

and you think it's coyote scat? Yeah, I'm fairly certain it's probably coyote Scott. Just because one we don't have a huge canine. Well, a cane on here like the wolf, our biggest one here is that medium sized coyote and first of all, like, Oh, my name is a dog, but then we realize, hey, it's not fully digested, there's not there's still some organic material in there that just can't be digested like the fur, maybe the skin of some seeds or some berries or things like that, because we do have some olive trees here that probably got transplanted over by like birds and other animals from like the the ranching days and just intense was over. And so when I was I was digging with nature's greatest tool, the stick we seal it was like a lot of stringy fur, it looks a little bit fuzzy when I broke it open. So they'll

just eat like a little rodent or something whole basically kind of like they'll chop it down. Now I can just and just gobble it

ST

up. They'll still do their chewiness and ripping and tearing and things like that, but they'll definitely you know, have those really gnarly tastes to tear through thick fresh flesh but as omnivores like hey, you and me if we choose to eat meat is that they they have teeth that are also adapted for eating, you know, fruits and berries and other sorts of plant material. And also I've recently learned insects to apparently they like to eat some grasshoppers who if they can't get their their mouths on anything bigger or more, you know more sustenance or something like that. So okay, I'm

getting a stick to Yeah. Oh,

ST

this is a bad. Oh, thank

you take it from the correct end. And then this looks to me what is that? I was trying to fix like almost part of a sorry, like a part of a pine cone or something, doesn't it? It? Does. That's all I'm trying to figure out too. Just in case there was any doubt at this point? Yes, we are poking coyote poop with sticks, which is a lot more fun than it might sound like. Do they eat legs? Did they would eat like pine nuts and stuff?

ST

I mean, if it was available. Yeah, they're pretty opportunistic. If there's an opportunity to eat or something, and there really isn't anything else easier to grab. Yeah, they'll definitely eat what they can get. So just another one. Yeah, there's a few of them in there. Like I'm really curious about this too is like it's so hard. Yeah, with breaking your stick and now my poor stick is that oh no piece of plastic. Oh, yeah, that will happen to again with the opportunistic you know if there's like if someone left like a candy bar and it still has something in it, or maybe just like remnants or something in it and they're like I'm gonna look this and chew on it to trace Yes, please. We don't want them eating trash I almost want to say it's like a hard skin of the best thing I can think of is like a fruit because sometimes you know fruit like grapes or something like that has skin that's not really easily digestible. Yeah, can come out like that and you know, a lot of baking in the Sun it gets pretty hard

sure you kind of curl Yeah, on itself, too.

ST

Is that like I said, like kind of looking as closely as I can almost looks like the skin of something because it doesn't quite look like a pine cone something or other or like a nutshell,

right? Plus, it's hard to imagine at this time of year them getting anything out of a pine cone, right. Yeah, exactly. The squirrels would have gotten it already. So why would they even bother with it but it is the exact color and shape outside part of a bright pine cone. Okay, I know that probably all sounded really gross. But honestly looking through the scat was super interesting. I felt like a nature detective next time. I would love to do this again. But bring a magnifying glass and get a closer look. You'll learn so much about an animal and its environment by looking at what it eats. When we were done. Looking at the scat, Saara and I looked around to see if there were any tracks nearby. The ground though was fairly dusty and had quite a few leaves laying around on it so we didn't see any and we decided to keep walking to see if we could find any other traces of coyotes. We walked down to the river and check the muddy banks but we only found deer tracks there. We think we found some gray fox scat along one of the trails, which was super exciting, and a couple of other coyote scouts along the way. Just as we were heading back to the pond to find a comfortable bench in the shade for our interview, we saw something move in the tall grass.

ST

Like just about the same size as the jackrabbits.

We stopped to get a better look.

ST

long, skinny tail, tall, pointed ears

and we saw it moving away from us. Do you have any guesses about what it was yet? It was a coyote pup. It was one of the cutest things I've ever seen. We clearly spooked it and it trotted off to hide, which it did very well because we tried to find it again by following trails that were closer and we could not see it. Eventually we headed back to the bench to get settled in for our interview, which you're going to want to hear because at one point we got serenaded by a whole whole family of coyotes who were apparently right behind us the whole time we were talking, we'll get to the full interview and the coyote chorus right after a short break.

And now on to the full interview, how did you originally get interested in nature?

ST

So, the funny thing is, I've always been within nature since I even knew what nature was. It was kind of those things were we my family and I would go to places like Sequoia National Park, we'd go to like different kinds of just nature spaces and just even just simple parks and whatnot. We had a blast is me exploring nature. And you know, I love exploring animals and as a young kid, I was like, Oh my God, look at this frog, this lizard. And I felt like even at a young age, I knew you know, don't take the from the wall. Just be careful and gentle and put them back. Although one of my very earliest memories, sadly, was I loved a frog too much. Yeah, I squeezed it too hard. I gave it too much love. I was like, too. Yeah. This is a story of like, if I was told by my parents that my mom was like, Yeah, you love the frog too much. And you just brought it dead in the house. Sobbing Oh, because you're like, What did what have I done? And I'm like, no wonder I feel so scared picking up frogs and toes even at work by okay, just be gentle with trauma. But like, obviously, I've come over that a lot. But it's just like, My earliest memory was like, I was so devastated by my own actions. And I was like, I gotta be more careful. And it's really, so it was like a sad learning experience. But yeah, we we explored a lot. And then I didn't really think of nature being something you could do a career in or anything like that. I was like, hey, nature is nature. You just love it, respect it, take care of it the best you can. And I actually went to community college, just sort of no idea what major I wanted to do. And just having happenstance took a course that was called Environmental Science. I was like, Oh, what's that all about? And I was like, Whoa, these are all the things that I really enjoy. And all the things I think I'm talking about climate change, globalization, all these different kind of components.

This kind of thing is exactly why I ride for community college, it made such a big difference in my life. And in fact, my husband and I, at different times both had the same teacher at Napa Valley College, and we loved her so much. And she made such a big difference in our lives, that we named our firstborn daughter after her no joke. So it's cool to see what a big impact it had on Sarah's life to

ST

that I'm like, I want to do something related to nature, and like teaching these sorts of things, learning more about them, and spreading awareness, you know, just kind of cultivate an understanding with nature and cultivate positive relationship with nature's so that people will take care of something they built a relationship with, because sometimes it's hard to bridge a gap of oh, what's nature, I just use it and I don't really need to care about it. But when you build and foster relationships, suddenly you want to take care of it not because you feel obligated to take care of it, or you're supposed to take care of it, but you want to. So it's kind of a long history of like weaving in and out of just like I love nature, I love animals, and then going, oh, let's apply that passion to something a little bit more positive. So that's how I'm here today.

I love that. So I've been to fer a lot of times, it's where I earn my California naturalist certification. I bring my kids there pretty regularly on the weekends, and it's just a good place to get into nature without having to go too far from the middle of Sacramento. I've also seen and heard coyotes. There are a number of times which got me wondering about how many might live there. Sorry, said she wasn't sure. But she estimated that if you include the new pups, it could be close to 20 individuals. It seems like a pretty like it would support a lot of coyotes here.

ST

Yes, absolutely. And that one thing to consider to consider is that you can get a lot of pups and a lot of times, especially the urban coyotes, they won't always reach adulthood, they can probably live to be between 1015 years but like majority, they may not live up till year three. And even with the pups, they probably won't live until their first year sometimes Yeah, that's why they tend to have a pretty large litter depending on location food supply. How many coyotes already here, what's the current population, but on average, they can have a litter of about four to seven pups.

Okay, this thing about the different litter sizes is fascinating. Kate Marion child writes about this in secrets of the oak woodlands, which I think I've recommended and like three different episodes by now so definitely go purchase that book if you don't have it yet. Anyway, to summarize the section of her chapter on coyotes, the US government basically went on a killing campaign to get rid of as many coyotes as possible in order to protect livestock. They throw an insane amount of money at this and also killed 10s of 1000s of coyotes every year. And to quote Marian child Astonishingly, after more than 100 years of this concentrated attack coyotes are more more numerous than ever and have even expanded their range. She then explains that the reason for this is the fact that coyotes can actually have more pups if there's more food available. This means that if one coyote from a pack is killed, and there's temporarily more food for those who remain, the new mothers will then actually have bigger litters and the pups will have a better chance of survival, which brings the total number of coyotes up rather than down after one is killed. Marian child says ranchers have been more successful when they've redoubled their efforts to protect their livestock with things like improved fences, guard dogs, etc. Rather than killing more coyotes, okay, but back to what happens after baby coyotes are born.

ST

And of course, not all of them are gonna survive, because that's just how nature works. Even if even with the Father and Mother Coyote, they're actually taking care of them. And both parents take care of them. It is a family unit, they will take care of their young, it's a collaboration, they work together to take care of a family. And so a family unit could just be like the mom and the dad, it could be like the previous year's offspring that are not quite there at the reproductive age. And then the newest offspring, and eventually like when the older cubs reach that reproductive age, and it's time for them to sort of start their own family, they might, you know, break away from the family pack from their own family pack, or maybe another one joins them and the family pack is a little bit bigger. It's kind of it's kind of interesting society within the coyotes where, you know, you could have your solitary ones, you can have a small family pack, you can have a large family pack of multiple families or just one family or some that just like I don't want to be in this family operate in a way. So it's like it's almost like in a way humans how we kind of like deviate or come together. Coyotes almost have a similar

move on go to college.

ST

Some family packs will actually accept a solitary coyote sometimes like oh, okay, cool. I almost imagine like, you know, a family pack is like, has a young daughter reach the reproductive age and a male solitary cut is like Hulu. So you know, it might happen, you know, sometimes families get together.

Okay. Okay. And what is reproductive age for a coyote?

ST

So the question I want to say, three, okay, you may want to Google this now.

I did Google it. And while coyotes are actually sexually mature by about one year old, often they don't meet until they're two when you're out here walking around what time of day, are you most likely

ST

to see the coyotes usually when I've seen coyotes, it was early, early mornings, or later in the evening, okay. Usually in like the mid day, it's either a little too hot or a little bit too many human foot traffic. So again, they're going to kind of avoid the area right now today. Well, here it was like what, almost close to three o'clock, and we saw baby Coyote. Well, we could speculate because overcast was a little bit warm. A lot of humans are probably staying home today. And so they're feeling a bit more adventurous and a bit more comfortable. Yes, there was no one around you locked up. It was just us. It was just us. Yeah. So you can you can find coyotes actually almost any time the day. It just depends on people here, you can probably see them a little bit more on the nocturnal side, but also a little diurnal, depending on again, humans when it comes to like in the actual cityscape or the urban environment, you're gonna see coyotes mostly active in the nighttime, where there's now a lot of people, a lot of a coyote sightings were actually around my own neighborhood or like downtown Sacramento, through the through the night, and people were like, Oh, my gosh, I have talked about knots. Coyote, like I'm clapping my hands to Hazm to make sure that they're not getting used to being around people, and that people know that's not a stray dog, leave it alone, don't even try to feed it.

I was curious about which California cities have coyotes and I saw that they are in Los Angeles, San Diego, San Jose, San Francisco, Sacramento, and then I stopped googling it because I think they're just in all the cities. So right and why is it that coyotes like this is something that one of my listeners asked actually was wondering like, why is it that coyotes can adapt to urban environments but say like foxes, or like other animals that maybe eat similar things, they don't adapt to urban environments. What is it with coyotes

ST

I can tell for like wolves, for example, why they're not that great for urban setting are a lot larger. So finding places to live and hunt can be a little bit trickier. Plus, their meals are going to be a lot bigger than are going to be with rodents and small mammals like rabbits, foxes, I'm not quite sure, I think they would have a higher chance than let's say wolves to be able to adapt an urban environment. Maybe that's just speculation and kind of like an educated guess that maybe foxes don't do too well, in the urban setting is maybe because they're smaller, there's probably higher likelihood of being eaten by other possible urban predators or traffic, they get hit by cars more easily than a coyote. They you know, you can't see a small fox or a small skunk or a possum but you might be able to see like a medium sized dog, but I'm sure they're probably around and we just don't see them as much as the coyotes because they're smaller and they tend to be maybe they're just better at hiding. They're better. They're just like, oh my god just run across. But in terms of coyotes, it's It's basically based on food. You know, they're probably Memory diet is you know, rodents small mammals fruits, berries, unfortunately trash. So they there's an abundance of food around our neighborhood because a lot of times and it's another reason why they adapted so well nighttime hunting for the urban setting is because mice and rats and other rodents like that are actually primarily nocturnal. We don't see a lot of rats and mice in the daytime, they're usually found more in the darkness for a little bit more quieter, they can leave me more peacefully find food without being disturbed, but someone else is gonna have to be awake to kind of eat those animals, including owls. Yeah, that's why I can see why coyotes are really good in the urban setting because there's an abundance of food. Yeah, it's exactly right for

them. No. And not only are they eating the rats, but they can eat whatever the rats were eating too, right? Like they're like, Oh, cool. I'll take both now I'll

ST

take that plant and that or that cheese. I'll eat the cheese and I'll eat you apricot tree. I like to start archery. Yeah, and let's be in a smaller size animal there's a little bit more easier for them to hide in just bushes, you know, in a park,

but like they're native here, right there. And and what is their, their historic range?

Where would they have been found?

ST

They would definitely be found a lot within the California Northern American area. I mean, even like with some research studies, it's like they weren't really in the European

area. Sidenote, because there are no coyotes in Europe, or at least there weren't historically Europeans, when they came over actually borrowed the novel word for Coyote, which I cannot pronounce. So I'm going to play the pronunciation for you from Wikipedia, call yield 100. Again, call yield. The Latin name for coyote is Qeynos Leightons or latrines. I'm not sure how to say it, but it literally means barking dog, we're gonna get to the barking dog park in just a minute. Right?

ST

You know, they were just basically native here in this area. So I mean, they had North American area, but they do have a widespread and of course, animals end up traveling through accidental book shipment. That's actually how we got things like rats and other side is some rats go on a boat. And then there they go. I don't think like the kind of rats that we think about now like certain species around New York City. Those are like European ancestor rats

that are like the size of a chihuahua

ST

subway rats, I've been in New York City. I've seen those guys but like that is not alright, I swear there to those ones in particular are not our rats. So we do have our own native species, but those size of like, a wall or like what is that monstrous things like that? That was definitely a oops European shipment. Accidental animals will move either by people on purpose or by accident. I'm not sure if it was like I used anywhere else. Part of me wants to say maybe somehow, they might have gone to another continent, but they're mostly like native in this area.

Is there anywhere that you wouldn't find them like in California or in the United States? Or they just

ST

they just adapt to everyone everywhere? There's a place there's no coyotes? I don't know of it. I won't say like no or yes as a definitive answer, just because I haven't made that kind of research. But in terms of the range, they can travel, like 60 miles, they'll cross city or state borders, it doesn't matter then like borders don't mean anything than them. Those are arbitrary things that humans have created. And it's just a matter of, Is there food over here? Is there possibly new territory for me to claim? Is there a lady coyote I was just really attracted to and I'm following her

at this point. I called timeout because of the airplane that was flying over us. It was a prop plane and it was pretty low. So it was really loud. And after the plane had been around for a minute, the coyotes got real aggravated by it, and they told us their opinions about it.

ST

Oh my gosh. So I have a speculation on that. I hopefully the listeners can hear this. The airplane is creating a sound that probably is not something that they like. So they're responding.

It's not something I like either, should we How would it

ST

get your airplane.

Sorry, says it isn't known why coyotes, bark and howl and yell at different loud things like sirens and airplanes. But based on my very brief personal experience with howling at the airplane, it really was pretty cathartic. Also, I will just appreciate Saara forever for being willing to hell in the airplane with me after we recovered from just how cool it was to hear that coyote chorus right behind us. I was curious about how similar and different coyotes are from other canids.

ST

So the best way to describe it is that they'll share a lot more similarities than differences for say they are just a medium sized dog a little bit smaller than the wolf a little bit bigger than the fox or they like, like a wolf can be like three to five feet long, including the tail and almost two feet tall, that's like to the shoulder and the kite is like one half feet tall to the shoulder and they can have a little bit shorter in length, including the tail and then foxes like one foot tall, maybe a little less than that too. So in terms of size, there's that difference in poor shape a little bit if you kind of were really looking at like the facial structure of let's say a wolf and a coyote is coyotes actually have longer pointed ears so wolves are a little bit more shorter, a little bit more on the rounder side. And the coyotes muzzle is very long, it's narrower, a little bit more pointed. And again, the wolf is a little bit more rounded a little bit more stout. So that's like one quick way to tell the difference between the two and Kyle has also have more like golden ish eyes. Oh, as you can see, wolves have more like, you know, brown, I think sometimes will have blue eyes as well, which is pretty cool. Also, levels are my favorite animals. Oh, it started with wolves. And then I was like, we don't have wolves here. The Nature Center. That's okay. I'll stick with coyote Yeah. became my favorite animal, he'll become the mascot. Yeah, but coloration patterns will also play a factor of how they're kind of different. They don't really have a big range of coloration combos. It's kind of like that reddish brown fi kind of a yellowish brownish tan body, like a white, yellowish belly and net. And you can see wolves come in like different shades of blacks and browns and whites and a little bit of red, like he got the red wolf kind of thing to going on. They have a little bit more of intricate color variations and color combos, whereas these are kind of generally within the same light colors. They don't have as VAs of color

different. Yeah. So they're, they're pretty easy to tell apart. And yeah, and one of the things I thought of while you were talking about their ears being more pointed. Yeah, is I heard that as dogs get domesticated, their ears get rounder. Yeah, I've

ST

heard that too. And I'm kind of interested like how accurate that is, I can believe it. Because a lot of dogs with rounded ears, they're more floppy, but also makes you wonder like in the wild, though, we see the wolves, I'm more of a rounded ear. They're definitely not domesticated. And yeah, definitely like,

do you think it would be possible to domesticate a coyote? Oh,

ST

absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I mean, don't do it. But yes, I mean, it will take some generations. Yeah, it took some generations, but they might have an easier time being domesticated because they're like a medium sized dog, they might get a little bit more trusting with people.

So we think sometimes when we think of domestication of animals, we think of just like going and catching a wild animal and then sort of trying to tame that individual animal. But usually, that's not the way that it works with domestication. The Smithsonian Magazine has an article on how dogs were domesticated originally from wolves, and there's a theory called survival of the friendliest. And it suggests, according to Smithsonian that wolves largely domesticated themselves under hunter gatherer people. The article goes on to say that the physical changes that appeared in dogs over time, including spotty coats, curly tails, and floppy ears follow a pattern known as self domestication. It's what happens when the friendliest animals of a species somehow gain an advantage. Friendliness somehow drives these physical changes, which can begin to appear as visible byproducts of this selection in only a few generations. So maybe they're coming closer to humans, the friendliest ones are getting the food scraps, and then the friendliest ones of their offspring get even a little bit closer to the humans and gain a bigger advantage from that. And so they end up domesticating themselves. There's a famous case of domesticated foxes in Russia, which the article also talks about this experiment bred foxes who were comfortable getting close to humans. But researchers learned that these comfortable foxes were also good at picking up on human social cues. The selection of social foxes also had the unintended consequence of making them look increasingly adorable like dogs, I definitely recommend going in looking at some of these pictures of the domesticated foxes. They're super cute. But this didn't happen in just one generation. It took several so when you think about domesticating coyotes, my guess, as somebody who's not super educated on this is if it follows the same pattern as dogs and foxes, probably it wouldn't happen overnight, and not with one individual. In fact, I read an article about a woman who was a dog trainer who found a coyote pup that had been left alone and her raising that and training it like she did with her dogs and the pup never learned its name and it never really learned to live inside of a home. Another article I read said that often people when they try to take in coyotes, the coyotes never become the good family member that they're hoping for. And they end up chained in the backyard. And they can't be rereleased because they're too used to people and they might try to approach people in inappropriate ways. I'll let Saara get into some of the reasons it would be a bad idea to just try to take in a wild

ST

coyote. But there's still a wild animal that can have an unpredictable behavior. So why they often say like fed coyote is a dead Coyote. You feed a coyote, it starts to come to learn, I don't really need to hide, let me just go find some people, and they're gonna give me food. But there comes expectations from that as well. They don't really have the cognitive process of thinking, Oh, this all humans were gonna give me food. So they might get a little aggressive. And that's where some human text might occur is either we're expecting food, you're not giving it to them. They're like, How dare you what's going on? Like, this was a relationship I thought I had with people and it might get a little aggressive. It's the same thing that can happen with geese and ducks and things like that as well as when you feed these animals. They get reliant dependent, they get expectant and then suddenly they're aggressive with each other because they're competing for those little breadcrumbs or they're aggressive with the per saying who they think they should be getting food from when they follow you. And also just environmental wise it can be kind of gross because then you got these geese and these ducks all sitting in a place where normally they need to move. And so no all sudden, you get all this like bird waste, that just really bad for water quality. Yeah, so not completely the same with coyotes. But you know, you can definitely attract coyotes in the area a lot more and things like that. But the thing is, like coyotes, like I said, could get aggressive with you. And if they're habituated and approaching humans, that poses a risk to people. And oftentimes, the solution to that, unfortunately, is if a domesticated, habituated coyote is found kind of approaching humans, or maybe like starting to attack or look aggressive, the responses, get the coyote put them down, there is no alternative. Unfortunately, there is no like reversal of that learned behavior. And sometimes that can be hard because oftentimes, you see a coyote trot and about and it really does just look like a straight like stray dog or someone's dog got loose. Yeah, I had many times where I was like, Oh, my God, someone's dog is that's not a dog. That's coyote is one of the things like steal your Coyote, and you should be able to tell like, oh, no, that's a wild coat and give it space. And there are some situations where if it does seem to be a little comfortable laying in the street, or the sidewalk, or maybe approaching you, hazing is like the best way to do it, which is basically just make loud noises. Clap your hands. Be really scary. I would not like throw any projectiles at them. I mean, if you had a host in the same neighborhood, you might spray them a little bit. That's fine. It's harmless. But like any kind of possible harmful projectiles, obviously avoid just making yourself scary is enough for them to instill that humans scary avoid, and then you're keeping the coyote safe. And so

that's training them to stay away from humans. Is it? Yeah, protecting you? Like what are the odds of you getting attacked by a coyote?

ST

Honestly, it's very, very, very low. The only time that you will probably have a higher likelihood of being attacked by Cody as if you have a small child or a small pet or even just any pet because again, you know, there's a potential Oh, possible territory threat or possible food source? Or they're not registering a small human child is not food, they might just go Oh, potential? I don't know. Let me go check it out. It's all about just being aware. Obviously, don't take your small child unattended in the dead of night or, like be like our kids go hang out in the front yard, like 8pm I don't know. But even then it's a very low likelihood. It's kind of like an off chance. Yeah. And you know, all times people think that oh, you know, Kyle, eat your, you know, your small pets and your cats, but just it's true, it can happen. But it's not likelihood. It's also relatively low, because they tend to go for rats and mice and things like that. Even smaller, even smaller rabbits. But if your cat is like really just sitting around or your dog sitting around and not really doing much to defend themselves, and it isn't easy catch, obviously, they're gonna go with the easier catch. So that's why you got to be mindful and keep your pets inside, especially at nighttime. Yeah, especially the cats for longer than just the protect them but also somber population as well.

Real quick sidenote, is the reason why cats are so problematic when lit outside is that they're not actually native to this area. And so they do things in the ecosystem, that the ecosystem does not have a way of balancing out, they've actually contributed to the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals and reptiles in the wild, and continue to adversely impact a variety of other species. So that's ABC birds.org. I know we love our cats, I've got a cat, I love her, she's been my buddy for like 13 years, but just keep your cats inside, that's the best thing you can do. Okay, we went from animals that are not our pets to animals that are our pets. And now let's go back to animals that are not our pet. Let's hear more about the lifecycle of coyotes. The whole

ST

lifecycle is that they will actually you know, start mating around like late January to March basically getting ready for the spring pups which is what we're seeing right now and like in this in this early summer, usually get late spring, early summer, but they got it pretty quick gestation period, like 6063 days, so probably quick a lot of cumin pregnant people are like I wish that was soon for me to like, maybe for one time and like now I'm holding like four to seven I'm going to get them a quick so I guess there's a there's a trade off there. I'm not hanging out with the family for quite a few years. I always say like the daughters will hang out with the family pack for a good chunk of their life unless they kind of break away and find a mate or something like that and they're quite monogamous they'll they'll tend to mate for several years possibly for their entire life or until one of the peer dies and then it's like okay, well I mourn the death of my mate or my pair and you know sometimes you gotta move on, you know, keep their offspring and the generations come in so but they've been fairly monogamous as opposed to many other animals that were like you know, I'm all over the place Yeah, every animal species different which is funny because it's almost like humans you got some humans that are polyamorous and some that are monogamous or some that are kind of like an atom in between so it's it's kind of interesting how like, we humans are kind of like a combination of a different different kinds of

do our own. Humans defy categorization? Okay, but what About other species and coyotes, how picky are they about their meats? Okay, I've heard that they would actually create hybrids with other species. Have you heard anything about, like, heard

ST

or read anything about that? So I wouldn't know what to say specifically, but I wouldn't completely rule it out. Because in the wild, there can be a number of hybrid hybridization happening because, you know, adaptations, genetics that need to, like carry on to the next generation. You can also talk about things like you know, climate change, and things are changing. Maybe there's, maybe things are maybe there's a lot of populations in certain areas, and they have no choice but to mate with a possible other species.

science.org has a very brief article about this exact thing. So apparently, in the eastern United States, coyotes are hybridizing with wolves and domesticated dogs. So here's what the article says these chi wolves, which can be twice the size of coyotes are thought to number in the millions. zoologist Ronald Ks, told the economist in some ways they are a mix of Wolf and coyote for example, their howl starts deep and ends in coyote like Yips, but their flexible diet and nocturnal habits are unlike those of either wild ancestors, such behaviors may help explain why chi wolves are thriving in urban areas, even cities like New York and Boston. So coyotes are super adaptable on their own. And then also, they've mixed with other animals that has made them even more adaptable, which is wild, but is anything threatening coyotes. Okay, they seem completely unstoppable to me because they can live anywhere, but like, yeah, are there threats to coyotes? What do we have to worry about?

ST

Oh, absolutely. I think one of the biggest threats to coyotes is probably humans, unfortunately, because from accidents of Oh, no, like I said, This coyote, not really realizing, and then they had to be called on and put down or I hit the tiny with my car by accident or a plaque or something like that. But this is also purposeful for, you know, because a lot of times coyotes will venture into farmlands. And they'll go for like small livestock, poultry, animals like that. And you know, a lot of farmers are like, Oh, my gosh, I got to protect my plot and protect my animals. And so rather than really trying to find some alternatives at work to kind of keep them at bay, or kind of discourage them from coming, that just automatically will shoot them. Some of them will do it, just the individuals that come threatening, some of them will see a coyote and be like, That's it not done, you're gonna get a chance.

As we talked about a few minutes ago, that's probably not the most effective way to actually keep coyotes away. Do you know any, like common myths about coyotes? What do people think that's totally wrong? Or

ST

so I feel like sometimes maybe people think coyotes are like super aggressive, and they're super, like, you know, mean, and again, that's probably a myth right there is that they think they're aggressive. They're mean, they're gonna attack you. They're scary animals, but really, they're just shy little animals. They're like, I just don't, I don't want to hang out with you. Humans are scary. So they're very shy, not like me and aggressive or anything like that. They can be but you're probably threatening them or scaring them or they're habituated, or they're probably infected with rabies or some kind of illness that causes an abnormal behavior, whereas normal wild behavior is none of those things. It's just, I'm shy. You're scary. I'm going to vote you very much like humans when they see a scary thing there. So I guess I'm gonna avoid that,

right. Okay, so coyotes might not want to be friends with us, you know who they are friends with badgers. According to a page by the Fish and Wildlife Service. Coyotes and Badgers are known to hunt together and can be even more successful hunting prairie dogs and ground squirrels when they work in tandem. Studies have shown that this unusual relationship is beneficial for both species, the coyote can chase down prey if it runs and the Badger can dig after it. It heads underground into its burrow systems each partner in this unlikely duo brings a skill the other one lacks together they are both faster and better diggers than the burrowing rodents they hunt. Apparently the Badger though will like ditch the coyote when it gets colder out and it can just dig up. It's bright. They're just kind of like buddies when it suits them. Okay, final question for Psara. So after four and a half, almost five years, what about being here at fer or about being around coyotes? Maybe not even coyote specifically, but just being in a natural environment like this does still amazes you take your breath away.

ST

Honestly, just everything even if it's as simple you and me were walking and no matter how many times I could probably see it. I will always just go Coyote, Jack Rabbit, I guess he 50 deer and so like, oh my gosh, deer. Yeah, like, you would think that it's the first time I've ever seen this animal my entire life. But no, it's probably the 100th time but it's still exciting every single time because they're just they're so fascinating. It's one of those things that you have a moment where it's like it's just you and that deer you in that coyote you in that poppy flower or that plant it's you in nature, you get to like kind of detach yourself from the whole city or the town or your neighborhood. The darn aeroplanes around your head. and maybe you get to leave some stress behind. Just focus on what's around you. And that's what's really great about nature. And what's really great about working here is that yeah, I got office work yeah, I got desk work or I gotta like work on like, oh camp policies and other things like that the nitty gritty not so fun stuff. But then you get these chances, where I get to come out here, get a little bit of a reprieve and be like, this is nice. This is why I'm here. This is why I'm doing all the boring stuff, because I get to be here and then teach a variety different people a variety, different ages of what we have here. And what we can do to foster relationships that are positive with nature, and instill this sort of stewardship and people like, I want to do better, I want to do more, even if it's something as simple as I'm going to start recycling more, or I'm going to, you know, reduce my water consumption in terms of like, obviously, not drinking, because we need it, but like, maybe let's not have my faucet running when I'm brushing my teeth, you know, or maybe let's not take a shower, that's an hour long and the water's running for the entire hour lately, we let's find ways I can improve my life in small ways, but also helps improve nature. So like these kinds of small things, because my jam is definitely talking about ecology, but in a sustainable aspects, like what can we do that helps them because I want to show and express that, hey, we're in a relationship with nature, right? We're not this is not a Oh, I'm just going to take take, take and never give back. Like no positive relationship ever works on that kind of system. It's always given tickets, always a collaboration, it's always a two way street of a relationship. And it's kind of like trying to go back to the days where the indigenous people knew exactly what that was all about. They knew I am taking something, but I need to give something back to you so that you are growing, you are thriving, and therefore I can continue to grow and continue to thrive. So it's like trying to teach that mentality back in the modern day human. And so it's, it's what being here is a constant reminder of that purpose. And that joy and that passion that I have for that kind of thing. So yeah, it just it brings me peace, and it kind of gives me that grounding of Yeah, I'm exactly where I'm meant to be. I love that. I love that. That's

super cool. Well, Sarah, thank you so much.

ST

Thanks so much coyote actions. Yes, perfect.

Awesome. I had so much fun with sorrow running all around the riparian zone looking for coyote clues. I highly recommend this activity with a buddy with kids or by yourself. Although people might give you weirder looks if they see you poking poop with a stick by yourself. One last note is that if you're not familiar with it, you should definitely check out fer Nature Center fer is spelled E F F I E different word why EAW it's located in Carmichael inside of Ansel Hoffman Park. So if you're anywhere in the Sacramento area, it's pretty accessible to you. I think parking is like $5, but totally worth it because there are so many great easy trails that kids can do. The Nature Center has animal ambassadors as well as some very cool taxidermy critters, including a coyote that is snarling and there are so many great plants and animals to check out on the 100 acre preserve on the land there while you're there, consider making a donation because these folks are seriously doing some solid work. Okay, there's something interesting for my week is a little bit sad this time because yesterday was my last day at the school where I've been teaching for nine years. It's a school I love but some changes in my childcare situation we're gonna make it really tough to keep driving across town and as I drove away yesterday, I listened to welcome to your life by group love at full volume and just ugly cried and I'm just gonna miss all my all my people on my beautiful kids and my colleagues. Also a reminder for everyone, and that is that I'm going to be making this podcast in seasons. This was episode eight out of 12 for season one. So just four more episodes until the season break. I've got all of the interviews recorded for season one and y'all they're so good. I cannot wait to share them with you. Okay, thanks so much for joining me and for sticking around to the very end of the episode. I'll see you all next time on Golden State naturalist bye.

The song is called I don't know buy grapes. And you can find the link to that song as well as the Creative Commons license in the show notes. See you next time.