Urban Ecology with Miguel Ordeñana (Part 2: Bats, Inclusive Urban Nature and Community Science)

Miguel Ordeñana  0:00  
You don't have to go to Amazon to make the next brand new species identification or learn about the newest range expansion. I think cities like Los Angeles that have such a diversity of habitat and can accommodate so many species due to our mild Mediterranean climate just started just hubs for wildlife research, wildlife discovery. And just a few years ago, it was thought to be devoid of nature based on what our perception of what habitat is, and isn't. Hello,

Michelle Fullner  0:31  
and welcome to Golden State naturalist, a podcast for anyone who's ever lived in an ecosystem. So that's everybody. I'm Michelle Fullner. And today's episode is part two of urban ecology with Miguel orden. Jana, whose voice you just heard, so if you haven't heard part one, hit pause and go back to that episode because it's about urban carnivores, including Peach 22, the mountain lion Miguel discovered living in Griffith Park in Los Angeles, and it covers the Wallace Annenberg wildlife crossing and a whole bunch more. So go do that. And then come back here when you're all caught up. Okay, did you listen to part one? Awesome. In today's episode, we're still talking urban ecology. But that is such a broad topic that this episode covers totally different information than the last one, including bats, the often surprising presence of wildlife and diversity of wildlife in our cities and ways to be more equitable and inclusive with the humans in our cities, particularly when discussing issues around outdoor access and conservation. I also want to remind you that this is the final episode in Season Two of Golden State naturalist and after this, I'll be taking a break to record more interviews. And to start to prepare for season three, there'll be an update episode that releases somewhere in the middle of the break. So make sure you're following the show to hear that update. And to find out about all the exciting things I'm working on for season three. Also, you're not going to want to miss that update episode because there's going to be so much more than just updates and I'm so so excited about it. During the break. You can stay in touch with me by following me at Golden State naturalist on Instagram and Tiktok, where I'll be sharing my outdoor adventures and some ecological tidbits along the way. My website is Golden State naturalist.com. And if you click on the store tab, you can find tank tops and T shirts for the summer or sweatshirts and long sleeves for this cold, rainy weather that is still happening in a lot of parts of the state. But honestly, I would go with a tank top because it's supposed to be hot again in like five days. I also want to say thank you to all of the people supporting the show on Patreon for making this work possible. I could not do it without you. And if you're not a patron yet, you can join for as little as $4 a month there will be some exciting opportunities soon to send me your questions for some very cool guests and topics coming up in season three. You can find me at patreon.com/michelle Fullner. That's patreon.com/michelle with two L's and Fullner is fu l l n er. But now let's get to the episode. Miguel Orton. Jana is still an incredible environmental educator, wildlife biologist and community science manager for the Natural History Museum of LA County. So without further ado, let's hear from Miguel orden Jana on Golden State naturalist.

We're gonna dive right back in here. But to remind you of the setting, it was a hot day in August and Miguel and I had just hiked into Griffith Park and gotten an amazing view of La Laid out below the hills where we stood, we ducked off the trail to get some refuge from the sun in the shade of a few oak trees. Also, we were sitting on the ground, and Miguel was definitely bitten by a few ants and our legs went numb repeatedly. So I'm thinking maybe I should invest in some camping chairs for interviews. The next thing I wanted to ask you about is bats like you've done a ton of work with bats too. So like how do bats adapt to an urban environment as well?

Miguel Ordeñana  4:11  
Yeah, that's a good question. So after discovering between two is really inspirational for me. So his story went went viral after National Geographic photographer Steve Weiner took this iconic image of him under the Hollywood sign, and it really loud people to think differently about nature in the city. Because now that there's this image of a mountain line of this basically symbol of nature under a symbol of urbanization, that these two things are not completely separate. The Nature doesn't end where the concrete begins as people a lot of times thought, and now people have to respect that even a place that associated with celebrities and traffic and everything you think about big cities is also a very important place for nature. So allows us to kind of expand the narrative about LA and cities. And because of P 22 story, we're able to bring attention to all these other important species and ecosystems that call a home. And a lot of that's because of our diversity of habitat here that we have available for species. And I mean, a lot of people brag about LA as being one of those places you can go skiing in the morning, and after a couple hours drive, you can go surfing. And yes, that's a cool thing to brag about to tourists, but it's also something that speaks to how unique LA is, and this ecosystem is. So with that said, that offers a lot opportunities for a lot of biodiversity of animals that are migratory animals that are introduced to Los Angeles, animals that have been native to this area for multiple generations. And some of those include bats. And so I think, for me, p 22. Story allowed kind of people to start paying attention to urban nature in general. Yeah, so his story for me was really inspirational from a professional and a personal standpoint. So from a professional standpoint, as a person who is this academically trained to design projects and to study wildlife a certain way, it really kind of inspired me to look in other places if I can find a mountain lion in the middle of the city in a place where experts kind of discounted as a place for for wildlife or as for mountain lions, especially and then subsequently finding bobcats and Elysian Park where the Dodgers play and gray foxes in Legion Park, multiple populations, a great foxes in the Baldwin Hills in areas that, again, experts because they're going off of what's been found in more suitable habitat and ecology and home ranges and territories into those situations. They think, okay, that's smaller than that. They can't do that they can't survive that they can't adapt to

Michelle Fullner  6:52  
that. It's just we know that they need to under miles, there's no way it's gonna cut it. We're Yeah. And

Miguel Ordeñana  6:57  
so and that's that kind of trickles into like, since we can't study animals or important research questions in the city, then people that live in the city aren't really people that we need to really invest in connecting with connecting to the conservation movement. Because the people that are really important are the people living on the edges of these habitats in the suburbs, and more affluent areas that that really interact with ecosystems where the wildlife really are. And that's unfortunate. And it's really kind of had an impact on the composition of who is invited to the table when we have discussions about conservation, about wildlife about human wildlife coexistence, and a very homogeneous group of people. And so now, between two story and similar ones are really showing that like, yeah, we have wildlife worth paying attention to and ecosystems worth paying attention to right here in the middle of the city ran mill, the urban core. And so how that inspired me is like, it's worth while looking for wildlife where other people are choosing not to, and taking a chance on communities, and involving communities that have been historically excluded from this type of work. And so as a person who almost fell through the cracks due to a lack of environmental education, I really embrace this idea of not using the same approach interacting with communities that have been historically excluded from this work, because it's not just the right thing to do the ethical thing to do, but it's also can really lead to some really great discoveries like the discovery of a mountain lion discovery of new species of lizard in the middle of the city that was only thought to live in outside of California. And then all those other discoveries I made a bobcat and mill of this tiny park in northeast Los Angeles that was thought to be too small for Bobcat population, Elysian Park and other parks not to be too smart for a bobcat population. And then that inspired my work even overseas and looking for Jaguars in place they were extinct for 30 years and was too built up to be suitable Jaguar habitat. Finding Jaguars there, I

Michelle Fullner  9:07  
just went down the deepest rabbit hole and I am resurfacing only to get you and bring you with me. Okay, so I wanted to see some camera trap footage from Miguel's work in Nicaragua with Jaguars. So I started Googling and I found some beautiful footage that he captured of two young male Jaguars walking right past the camera. It was an amazing shot, and then I kept looking to see what else I could find. And I came across a Washington Post article saying that researchers sometimes lured Jaguars to camera traps using you are never going to get it. Are you ready? Okay, they use Calvin Klein's obsession for men and the Jaguars come up and rub their scent on top of the Cologne. Miguel is quoted in this Washington Post article saying that the scent has civet tone and vanilla extract and that civet tone is a chemical Compound derived from the scent glands of civets smallish nocturnal cat like critters native to the Asian and African tropics. So then of course, I had to see what a civet looks like. And I looked it up, and they do look a little bit like cats, but they're not cats and are actually more closely related to mongoose. mongoose says which they look more like to me, but they're very cute and have long bodies and long tails and big rounded ears. And as I was looking at them, I kept seeing pictures of them eating coffee berries. And then it dawned on me that these are the so called cats that the whole cat poop coffee trend comes from. If you haven't heard of this, apparently, there are people in this world with $100 to spend on a single cup of coffee, and they want the beans to have been pooped out by a rainforest animal, which who am I to judge but the problem is that when the coffee became popular, people started trapping these animals and keeping them in terrible conditions and forced feeding them coffee berries, and I watched a very sad video so that you don't have to, but please just don't buy this coffee. The good news is that there are wildlife professionals out there finding some of these civets and setting them free. But people will keep trapping them if there's a market for this coffee. So instead of cat poop coffee, buy coffee that guarantees a fair price to farmers like the awesome coffee club or a coffee Co Op that's farmer owned, like Pachamama, neither of those brands is paying me to say that and I don't have any relationship with either of them. But buying ethical coffee makes a real difference in people and animals lives. So buying from one of these brands or another ethical brand like them is fantastic. Also, I want you to know that I looked it up and NPR tells me that Calvin Klein uses synthetic civet tone. So you don't have to stop buying obsession, unless you're worried about attracting Jaguars. Do you see how deep this rabbit hole went? Okay, I promise we're actually going to talk about bats. Here we go. And

Miguel Ordeñana  11:54  
then bats. So then and community science. So bats, because I had that interests. Based on my work experience in the desert. I was like, Hey, this is a really portable piece of technology, just like a camera trap. And I could use this technology and put it anywhere I want. And what's unique about bats is that unlike the carnivores that I was more used to studying, they're the only mammals that can fly. And so they have the potential to be in any neighborhood. And so to that point, like I was kind of testing the waters of community doing mammal community science, because there wasn't a lot of it, because most mammals are nocturnal, and not really community science friendly animals, because people would have to stay out at night to study to study them or use expensive technology. And so I thought of an idea to like, make mammals more accessible. Add that as an option on the menu of research projects to get involved in because I know a lot of people like mammals, because they're charismatic and interesting and mysterious, and what I gravitated towards about bats, just like carnivores, that they're a controversial species, and also potentially very ubiquitous throughout LA, despite, again, what bat biologists assumed, which was that, yeah, there's bats probably in most places, but they're probably just one or two species within la because we find more species richness, diversity in natural open spaces where you expect to find bats. And so again, the city again, was being discounted, even with bats, a species that is potentially everywhere and can fly has these abilities to be in any neighborhood. And so I thought it was a missed opportunity. And so at first I started a project looking at squirrels because that was one that only other mammals that people have the potential to see when the only diurnal animals or it means animal active during the day that someone can see on their lunch break, and take a photo and submit to us and turn that photo into a data point, using AI naturalist, which is a free app that people can use to connect with science projects, and participate in community science work. And so then bats was my next step. After that squirrel project was successful and resonated with people I was like, hey, what else is out there? What other mammal can potentially be anywhere. And so that's how it started really just me having that lucky opportunity just to learn about that technology, that technology advancing quickly, just like camera trap technology advanced quickly, and then pitching it to the museum and then being receptive to the idea. And I tried out, they bought a detector for the nature gardens space, which is three and a half acres of garden space in our gardens that was just built in 2013 and just see what I got there. And if I had success trying to convince us to go further than that, and then I also simultaneously had a bat detector in Griffith Park and Partnered with the zoo to look for bats because it's a safe place to keep the the texture. And we found a bunch of species cutting a species that was thought to be extinct from LA for about 10 years, called the Western massive bat is the biggest band North America has a wingspan of almost two feet wide. And yeah, and, and it and it lives in LA and a lot of people don't know that. And again, the bat experts thought it was gone from LA because of how urban it was in this bat in particular needs high or roosting spots, because as his narrow wind to body ratio, and so it has this has to glide basically has to have a high takeoff point and glide down to drink water to feed. And so that means also needs these long bodies of water. And just on the distance here, there's the LA River. And so a lot of people just count the LA River as this this drainage ditch or is this concrete, useless waterway. And it's actually habitat. And it's actually a corridor and actually a really important resource for riparian specialist species like the Myotis and potentially the Western massive bat that only can use long bodies of water to drink. And so we also have these artificial lakes throughout la in our local parks that weren't built for bats, but are helping a lot of them survive. And so I saw a lot of potential after kind of making those discoveries in Griffith Park and then documenting bats in our nature gardens, we not only documented bats within the first two weeks, we eventually documented up species multiple times that was very urban sensitive. That was a migratory bat that would travel from southern Canada down to Central America and back every year, and it was not to skip over LA because it was just to urbanize. In this particular species only roosting trees or foliage, it sort of find it at the nature gardens was very inspirational for a lot of people because it's a new garden, we didn't really know what to expect other than the out attract native insects and pollinators and things like that. But to be a resource for such an urban sensitive bat, like the Western red bat, and it being such a small space, it wasn't Angeles, for us, it wasn't as Griffith Park, it was a tiny little garden created from nothing, and is now a potential stopping point or resting spot, at least for this bat that has specific needs. And so for people that are like I can't, I wish I could give more to wildlife, you have a lot to give, if you just plant native plants that support native insects that that bats or adapt to eating, that if you even have an apartment complex and plant certain plants that are attracting those insects or telling your landlord or if you're the property owner not trimming your trees during times when bats may be vulnerable and not able to fly as little pups. I think those are just little things that people have control over that they didn't know about.

Michelle Fullner  18:04  
In the words of Naomi Fraga from the California native plant episode of this podcast. Native plants are the building blocks for all terrestrial ecosystems. So if you haven't heard it yet, go check out her episode and go check out the episode on growing native plants from seed with Julia Michaels because both of those go into detail about why native plants are so important. And they support amazing creatures like bats, who then do other things that support us as humans and support the rest of the foodweb.

Miguel Ordeñana  18:32  
But the first step is to know that bats are here. And bats are useful. Bats are important to have in the ecosystem, just like those carnivores that keep our ecosystem in balance. All the bats here in the LA area only eat insects, they multiple species of mosquitoes. So it's really important to have them round for that reason. And also for the agriculture industry, which a little bit outside of LA but people go to the grocery store and they get the impact there. And the farmers are saving a lot of money by not having to purchase expensive pesticide to get rid of crop pests. Instead, they are able to support back communities that are taking care of those crop pests for them, saving them billions of dollars every year, and also keeping our ecosystem healthy if you're not spraying with pesticide so I think there's a lot of services ecological services that bats provide that a lot of people don't think about. And

Michelle Fullner  19:30  
they're scared of bats to Yeah, I find them really scary. Like what do you say to people to help them not be so scared of?

Miguel Ordeñana  19:35  
I really what I love about controversial species, like carnivores in batch is that their conversation starters. And so even if they're coming from a place of fear, they're willing to talk about it because they want to express how afraid they are and why they're afraid of them. And it's an opportunity for me to tell them the truth and that's backed up by science about how how uncommon it is for bats to have rabies and then that none of them have had COVID here in North America that they don't like getting tangled in your hair. They're not aggressive. We do not have vampire bats here in the LA area. They're there in Mexico further south. Okay,

Michelle Fullner  20:14  
so let's talk about rabies for a second. I recently got my whole series of rabies vaccines just because there's a good chance that someday I'll do an episode that puts me in close contact with wild animals. And we should always take these kinds of risks seriously and follow the advice of our physicians, which I am not in No part of this is medical advice, but just how likely is a person to encounter a bat that's carrying rabies. So according to the Washington State Health Department, less than 1% of wild bats have rabies. And of course, I looked at the CDC page on human rabies and the page says that there are only between one and three cases of rabies reported in humans annually in the entire United States, between 2009 and 2019. There were 25 cases of human rabies in the US. And these are all listed on the CDC website. Of those 25 cases. 13 of them were caused by bats, eight by dogs, although one says dog mongoose, and I don't know what that means. But this is a surprisingly mongoose heavy episode. Anyway, another three were caused by raccoons and one unknown. And seven of those cases were acquired outside of the US and its territories. So bats are extremely unlikely to be carrying rabies are even less likely to give it to you and I and are doing amazing work for all of us by eating mosquitoes that are much more likely to spread diseases to humans than bats are. But this isn't the only reason bats are cool.

Miguel Ordeñana  21:44  
And that they're just really incredible species that are a lot like us. They're amazing mothers, for instance, they take really good care of their pups, they only have like a couple of cups a year, and that the bats are long lived. They can some of them can live up to 30 to 40 years. And a lot of people think, oh, there's just these rats with wings. And when people say that it's not just like discounting them. And because they're ugly, they also think that they're disposable when they say things like that. And because of that, oh, there's so many rats, they have like a rabbit, like they have a lot of babies, a lot of them don't survive. And that's okay, because they have so many babies a year. And so they have that same association with all small mammals, including bats, when bats are have this kind of different life history in rodents, they're not rodents. Okay,

Michelle Fullner  22:31  
so I think a lot of people think of bats as flying mice, or rats, because they're small, and they're mammals. But rodents are defined by their continuously growing incisors. Those two cute little bug teeth we associate them with, which of course, bats don't have, because they're not out there knowing on things. California bats are generally out there eating insects. And as Miguel mentioned, they don't reproduce nearly as quickly as the rats and mice, we sometimes inaccurately lump them together with, which means they're a lot more vulnerable to population decline than those animals. I'll link a page about bat pregnancy and motherhood from Bat Conservation International in the shownotes. If you want to learn more about that.

Miguel Ordeñana  23:15  
So there's there's a lot to educate about. And I think all these little facts and tidbits information go a long way and convincing people to not necessarily embrace them fully, but at least tolerate them. Right. And that's all I ask is that people understand that we need to make space for all these animals, even if we're a little bit intimidated by them or grossed out by them. They have an important role in these ecosystems and really huge value and they deserve to be here. Again, just like the mountain lion and, and other species that were here since I sees the bats have been here. Since I isn't beyond that. There. We have bats in our museum. Replica fossils of one that is millions and millions of years old, so old that was flying around the heads of dinosaurs. Oh, wow. And based on the fossil, it had almost the same characteristics as bats today. Wow. So there's so perfectly designed,

Michelle Fullner  24:14  
why improve on perfection, man, they're

Miguel Ordeñana  24:15  
doing great. Anyway. So it's really amazing species that again, I've been here way longer than us have an important role to play. And it was so great to start that study, and inspire others to get involved because it's paid off in so many different ways. It's really sent that message that you can do this rigorous science and you can do really thoughtful community engagement that resonates with a lot of audiences, including historically excluded audiences and have a really deep impact and not have to compromise anything. And I think that and as you continue to be open to feedback from the community, not just the scientific experts, it's going to make that project that Much stronger every single time. And that's been the case for this project. So it started off with that this is these random little detectors here and there and getting really cool discoveries. And then me pitching for a project that community science project called the backyard bat survey where I got funding from Disney to purchase a bunch of bat detectors, Disney Disney, yeah, they have a Conservation Fund, called the Disney Conservation Fund. And they provide millions of dollars to conservation projects all over the world. And previous to that they didn't really have many urban projects, they're supplanted a lot of times, they're supporting a lot of projects that support species that were featured in other movies. And so they kind of took a chance on us and I'm happy they did, and were able to kind of take our project to the next level. When we're piloting it, we're just moving like the same for detectors around different the different yards just to see if this was a possibility to go and do bat research deeper within the urban core of LA,

Michelle Fullner  26:02  
we need to go to a quick break. But when we come back, learn what Miguel found once he was able to use the extra funding he secured to learn more about urban bats and hear more about community engagement, all that in just a moment.

Okay, back to Miguel's findings with the Urban bats. Remember, he had just secured funding from Disney for his work.

Miguel Ordeñana  26:58  
That extra funding allowed us to not only sample more sites at one time, but sample each site for an entire year to look at seasonal patterns. And also compare a backyard to a local park that has a lake that's more suitable habitat and maybe an urban wildlife oasis for these bats. And so it's been really eye opening for the scientific community for the local community that are making these discoveries alongside us. It's not like these biologists are parachuting in extracting data and leaving without giving any benefit or communicating with the local community and, and hearing their feedback. I think it's a it's a new model that is long overdue, and more inclusive. And I'm proud to continue to adapt. And I'm also really honest that I wish I could have started this project in a different way. I wish I could have co created this project from the very beginning with the community, because it allows it to connect with community members a lot deeper, a lot quicker, and as a more lasting impact from the very beginning. But we have invested in in making adaptations to the project, expanding it in ways that are being responsive to the feedback and the recommendations of the public. So for instance, we have expanded not just do acoustic surveys of bass just to see what bats are flying over what neighborhoods but also to learn about where they're roosting and where they're not, and what species are using certain types of roofs versus others, and bring these community members into that process as well, because a lot of them just wanted to see a bat, a lot of them wanted to know where they live so that they can take a stance and have an impact. From a conservation standpoint, there's only so much value an acoustic recording can provide to the conservation of bats, it can let you know to bring attention to their presence in an area and the amount of species in one type of ecosystem versus another within urban areas. But that doesn't allow you to take conservation action on a physical place. If there's a park, for instance, that is really hotspot for bats, or a tree or a bridge or a building that that is under threat of destruction or development. But you know, as a bat roost that is a conservation and really tangible action that the community members have been wanting to have. But we couldn't offer that because we didn't know where these bats are roosting or at least we didn't in communicating with the public about that. And so now we're bringing this information that has been kind of being gathered here and there by biologists and getting the community involved making them aware of not just baths but what their needs are to survive in the city. And also the community wanted more, especially communities that aren't typically involved in environmental effort want their kids and people that look like them to have more opportunities to get their foot in the door.

Michelle Fullner  29:57  
And so how are people getting involved? Are they going mean out and making observations?

Miguel Ordeñana  30:01  
Yeah, so the way we're getting people involved is for one if we're in their region that year that we're focusing on. So we moved from region to region every year and in sample in different areas, to kind of like hyper kind of study a certain area, we ask people to volunteer their property, whether it's a apartment complex, a school library, a Boys and Girls Club, their home for a year. So that's one way and then they we kind of share what we find as the project progresses, and we recognize them for their work. And then we have this other aspect, the roof counts, and so we invite people to come out with us and count bats as they emerge from these roofs, and help us inventory what bats are, how many bats are flying in and out of these particular roofs, how that changes between June and August. So June is when if they're maternity roofs, the moms are mostly the ones that are flying, and but still, there's babies in the roost. At that point, they're just not able to fly. And then in August, the babies are then voelen able to fly. And so you're counting not just the moms, but also the babies that weren't able to fly in June. And so we asked the public to help us because there's a lot of sites, it's a great opportunity to connect with local nature. And it's it's different just seeing bats in person, right. It's just another experience that you can't mimic, and to offer the community that opportunity is, is really special. And, and also showing people that different types of neighborhoods, these roots are living is not just right in the foothills or in the mountains or whatever. It's it's also in the middle of the city. And so bringing attention to that is important. But the acoustic stuff has been really impactful. Because even talking about P 22 is like a fad, it was this was an event and watch. And this is a real example. We could talk about P 22. And like, Oh, that's cool. Like, I know where Hollywood is, I know where that is. But if I tell them like, Hey, I've detected this bat bat that they see on a map at your local high school, that's just a block from where we're at right now. They're like, Oh, yeah, my mom went there, or I'm gonna go there next year, I walk past there on my way to school. So like, it's just another deeper connection people get or like, if they have the detector at their school, like that's a community center, that's a place where people have been gathering for generations, or a library, for instance. And previous to that they had no relationship with the museum or scientists. And now because I'm in their trusted space, and we've been invited in now we have a relationship that we haven't had, ever, and the museum has been in South LA for over 100 years. And there are safiullah communities that had zero relationship with the museum as because we weren't as proactive about our engagement. And

Michelle Fullner  32:48  
being proactive is vital. There are so many obstacles, so many barriers facing some communities that a lot of us are fortunate enough to not really have to worry about in our own lives, but that we need to think about if we want to be inclusive, what are the barriers that

Miguel Ordeñana  33:05  
you see here, like, oh, it costs this much to see this extra exhibit? Oh, it costs this much for parking, your hours or this or a beach like how far the beaches are, what's the public transportation situation like to get to the beach or to our local mountains, those are all barriers that a lot of times we don't think about because they're not barriers. For some people, I have a car and I know the quickest way to get here and there and, and so you just have to kind of hear all these perspectives, even after inviting them and taking into these places. Because you don't want it to be just a one and done experience you want them to then be like talking about to their family and not only talking about it to their family, but in a way that is makes it seem accessible as an accessible ideas as a routine place to go and experience and that it's a place for them and not just other people.

Michelle Fullner  34:01  
And you can only absorb so much on one visit, right? Like there's so much to see. It's wild. I have to go back exactly. We kind of talked about this, but this is maybe a different perspective on something you already talked about, which is I think a lot of people think of cities as being this is a human space. And the wilderness as being this is either a recreation space or an animal space, right? Like that's, that's where animals live. This is where humans live. And I think like if you could wave a magic wand and be like, here's how I would change that paradigm like what would you shift in that?

Miguel Ordeñana  34:33  
I would shift that paradigm by? I don't know, I think the first step for me and I think this is something that the museum and some other institutions have been trying is that like, not assuming so much about what resonates for certain audiences, what's a barrier, what isn't a barrier and have listening sessions. I think the solution of listening to these communities that were poorly engaged in the past is an important first step. And not only listen, but also listen in a way that is followed up by action. Because I think I'm not saying that all parks have to be multiuse. But I think, like, for instance, so we have a few like these unique parks in LA, middle of LA, that are like areas that people can go for on a walk and see like native plants in the middle of like, really urban areas, but they don't allow soccer, they don't allow other types of recreation. And instead of telling people like, oh, yeah, this parks not for soccer, or baseball, you got to go to this other park. Like, not just like redirecting people, and in a friendly way, which is nice. But going a step further and in figuring out what is there at this park, that's a natural park for that person as well. Like, what else can we offer, or that's already here, that would resonate with this person? Yeah, maybe it's not on a day, they can't maybe not, wouldn't use it on a day that they want to play ball. But they might come back because they want to take a mental break, they want to get some fresh air a little bit more quiet night, a bunch of kids kicking balls flying around, they want to show their kids some local birds that use this park and not other parks, maybe there's an activity or an event or an art class or routine art activity that they can engage the public. And I don't know, there's just I think there's a really important value in in Yes, like preservation because we only have so much open space left. But at the same time sharing people how these open spaces are valuable to everybody, regardless of your background. Because you're going to continue to be sending that message that this park or this type of open space is only for certain types of people who like to use certain nature in a certain way. But there's a lot of different ways to engage in nature. And art is one of them, like I said, and mental health activities, but we need to kind of introduce those ideas, those non traditional ideas, it's not just a hike. It's not just a plant Id walk or bread walk. There's other things to do in nature. And I think we need to be more upfront about that.

Michelle Fullner  37:31  
And that's to maybe where those listening sessions can come in, right? Like how could we want to use this space? What would you want to do here,

Miguel Ordeñana  37:39  
but also put parameters around that, like, if you never going to allow them to put a slide or, or a swing set in there, don't introduce the listening session in a way like, Hey, we're open anything, right? Because then they're like, you're gonna get shot, they're gonna get shot down, if that's what they're suggesting. I think that's something that more than listening sessions can go wrong. That's a really good point.

Michelle Fullner  38:01  
That sounds like a voice of experience, right.

Miguel Ordeñana  38:05  
And also, like making sure that like, there's something actionable behind it, like, yes, you can make that situation comfortable and fun for the, for the person sharing that time with you. But at the same time, you want to not only be transparent about like, hey, like, thanks for sharing, like, we don't have the resources to do much about what you said. But at least ask him about things that they can actually have an impact on that they can actually go to the museum or go to another program and see their changes or the recommendations being put into action, I think there can be a mix of both things that they can comment on that the museum really can't help with, or whatever institution is can't help with. But there's other things you need to ask them about that actually can have an impact so that they can be willing to share their experiences again, and being willing to work with the museum again, or whatever the institution is. And so I think that's just a learning process. I think we're all using a growth mindset or trying to, which is a really great sign. But even through that process, we can't use that as our excuse to be continuing harm, just because oh, we're still learning. Oh, we're still growing. Sorry about that. Oh, sorry about that. Oh, sorry about that. Like, that adds up. And I think we need to grow in a way that that minimizes harm. And I found an excuse it's unexcused, right. Our intention is not an excuse for our impact. We need to be accountable for impact regardless of our intent, and learn from those mistakes and not repeat those mistakes, again, especially with the same communities. So I think that's the thing and then our community science office, for example, is developing a advisory council that includes basically help audit ourselves basically easy to external perspectives of yes, those like really engaged community scientists as one of those representatives, someone who's an environmental justice advocate Get that doesn't necessarily do community science, someone that is a little bit older someone that's part of the indigenous community, someone that is formal educators, someone that is a high school age or early college aged individual. I mean, we're not going to ever cover every single perspective. But I think the more we engage communities that were poorly serving, or we want to serve better, the better because we hear the perspectives of the same people every time and how to design an open space or how to regulate recreation, we're only going to continue to serve the same people and include the same people every single time. And not the only the parks that we have here today, but the parks that we established in the future. So

Michelle Fullner  40:49  
it's essential that we be inclusive as we design our outdoor spaces and have conversations around conservation and community science. I see this work as part of the way we begin to make better stewardship choices so that we can move forward positively and do things that are simultaneously better for humans and wildlife. And a message we're not used to hearing is that humans can be a powerful force for good in our ecosystems. But what does that actually look like? How do we help the wildlife living close to where most of us live in cities,

Miguel Ordeñana  41:24  
people can help urban wildlife by just talking about it more, a lot of it is just bringing attention to wildlife, their needs, their existence, and bringing more people into conversations about wildlife and their conservation. I mean, a good example is an event, which is called wildlife to watts. And it's getting community members and wants to learn about local nature, engage in local nature, learn about ways to support local nature, if

Michelle Fullner  41:53  
you live in around the city of LA, or good old watts, or if you'll be in the area in October, you can go to wildlife to watch yourself. This year's wildlife to watch event will be on Saturday, October 14. And then the very next weekend on Sunday, October 22, will be p 22. Day, so you have two options, or you can go to both.

Miguel Ordeñana  42:15  
Also, the National Wildlife Federation created a mural of p 22. In the city of watts. And we walked to that mural and talked about and celebrate conservation heroes that are from that community that don't have expertise in in biology and nonprofit management or anything like that, but are having a really deep impact that in a way that no other conservation is could and one of those examples is the center of his individual named Warren Dixon, who is local hip hop artist but co founded a hip hop group that raps about local environmental issues and how people can take action and does it in a way that's engaging that's, that's relevant to a lot of the community members that are in his neighborhood and within his circles, but also using a local graffiti artist to do a mural of p 22. Celebrated style in LA we have murals of Kobe Bryant or Tupac Shakur, all over LA. And now there's one of p 22. In the same style as something that we could celebrate as well and not have to do it in a separate way. Do it how in a way that that resonates with the communities and meets communities where they're at. And that means going to watts and doing these community events. And not yes bussing people out to open spaces is great. But they also need to know about nature, living right under their nose. They can't just be told about wildlife in Griffith Park and the Santa Monica Mountains that's great and inspiring. But they also need to know about wildlife that are in Watts, like the bats that I mentioned. And because that's when the personal and local pride kicks in. And they able to have the privilege of seeing their neighborhoods differently. Yes, seeing how they always been seeing in taking pride in Watts, for all the reasons they've been taking pride in Watts before, but also seeing this other aspect of watts or wherever that includes nature, and what's really special there regarding nature and the natural history of the area. And I think that's that's what everybody deserves, and that opportunity whether they are going to be conservation activists, that's probably not going to be the case anywhere. But I think at least giving them the opportunity. And the invitation is something that we haven't been doing, and it's the bare minimum. And I'm glad we're starting to do that. And I think that's one of the secrets to success. I think people seeing that not only is this, this campaign to save la cooters campaign to build the bridge is not just to build a bridge from outlines, but it's also to connect communities and when people are sending in their money they're not just seeing this really The basic campaign just focused on outlines and protecting them. But it's also showing how this campaign has gone to local elementary schools and local industrial communities and historically excluded communities and letting them know about this and why it's relevant to them that we're going further than the typical conservation program, and how everybody should be doing that. And hopefully, this is a sign that other conservation campaigns should use a more strategic and authentic model with regards to community engagement, not just do it as an add on, but as something that is essential for the success of this conservation program and not just thinking that, Oh, I'm not gonna go to these communities, because you're not going to give them much money to give to this campaign. But that's the only reason to reach out to communities, right? It's a humanitarian thing. It's a social justice thing. And we need to be more understanding of those intersections between wildlife conservation and social justice. And if we continue to ignore it, we're not going to have success. And as this, the cities get more and more diverse, you're going to be excluding the majority, not the minority, you're going to be excluding the majority. And that's just not a model for success by any means.

Michelle Fullner  46:15  
Yeah, I love that. That's so important. I'm really glad to hear that that has been improving. Yes, yes. Gradually, at least Yeah,

Miguel Ordeñana  46:25  
even the mountain the museum that I work at, like I grew up going there as a little boy being inspired by walking through the African mammal halls and were sent me a message they have sent me a message that wildlife is awesome. There are certain species out there that worth conserving, and even those diagrams are so good that I'd mentally transport myself to those places, but still made that goal of being a wildlife biologists are conservationists far reaching goal because all these places are depicted in places really far away from where I live, and where I grew up. And the wildlife in LA, or in similar places, were not being celebrated in my own museum here in Los Angeles. And now, there's an exhibit dedicated to an LA story, la wildlife hero, right in the same Museum, I see little kids that look just like me going and doing scavenger hunts in this exhibit, and taking a lot of pride in that.

Michelle Fullner  47:18  
I'm really looking forward in 20 years to hearing an interview with a scientist who just made some wonderful discovery or helped us solve some big problem. And that person telling the story of seeing this exhibit in the Natural History Museum as a little kid and describing how that was part of how they became interested in Nature and Science. Right now, that award winning scientist is a little baby Angeleno, maybe from a neighborhood that's been overlooked and discounted historically as a habitat for wildlife. And they're just walking around wide eyed in the museum, taking it all in.

Miguel Ordeñana  47:52  
And I think that makes me hopeful for the future. Because your goal and especially me as a parent is like that they see the world differently, they have that basic opportunity to see nature, how it should be seen, and which is should be seen everywhere, even in their bathroom, where there's a little spider in my bathroom, that's nature, and we all have have a role to play. And that, that this field that this movement is for everybody, and that you don't have to have a certain degree you have to certain background to be successful in this field. And yeah, again, again, as a father just to create an easier path forward for my children and all the children out there, because a lot of barriers that I was faced with are unnecessary. And those include even when I'm in my park, I've been celebrated for my work in this park. But I've also been confronted by police and and Rangers because of the way I look that I don't look like a typical naturalist or biologist and even seen as a threat because of how I'm perceived. And so I think even that difference is huge, right? Like it's not only about feeling comfortable, but for some people it could be a life or death situation. Absolutely a safety issue. Yeah. So I think bringing attention to those barriers and and doing our best to collectively and eliminate them and address them head on even if it means awkward conversations and and fighting through some some fragility and defensiveness. I think it's it's key. And it's going to ensure the safety of my kids and a lot of kids out there that that deserve to feel comfortable in nature and safe in nature. And yeah, hopefully that that's our legacy. And that's my one of my legacy or goals of my legacy as well.

Michelle Fullner  49:48  
I love that. I think I think that it's so good. You're out there doing it because the more press you get, the more it's like this is what a conservationist looks like, right? Yeah. And it's chipping away at it. I mean, is to go faster, but at least it's a it's

Miguel Ordeñana  50:02  
progress. Yeah, thank you. The

Michelle Fullner  50:04  
National Science Foundation released a report at the beginning of this year showing that quote, more women as well as Black, Hispanic, American Indian, and Alaskan Native people collectively worked in STEM jobs over the past decade, diversifying that workforce, and in earning more degrees in science and engineering fields at all levels compared to previous years. So that's fantastic news. But it also goes on to say that the groups mentioned are still underrepresented in these fields. So we're getting places, but we still have more work to do. Last question, sure. What about this work that you're doing with urban ecology, bad squirrels, p 22. All of these cool projects, like, what about being out here and doing all this still either blows your mind or takes your breath away,

Miguel Ordeñana  50:50  
it takes my breath away that I mean, because of all the missed opportunity in the past of not taking urban open spaces or urban ecosystems seriously, there's so much right under our nose. And as you kind of familiarize yourself with all the types of ecosystems, from soil, to, to insect communities, reptile amphibian communities, there's so much opportunity to making incredibly impactful discoveries. And so I think that in itself, is motivation enough that we haven't really tapped into enough. And we're just starting to, there's kids making discoveries that scientists dream about just because they're being told to look for the first time in an area that has been ignored for wildlife research. And I think that blows my mind is how easy it is almost, I would say, easy to make really cool wildlife discoveries. In the middle of city, you don't have to go to the Amazon to make the next brand new species identification, or learn about the newest range expansion. I think cities like Los Angeles that have such a diversity of habitat and comedy. So many species due to our mild Mediterranean climate, just started just hubs for wildlife research, wildlife discovery. And just a few years ago, it was thought to be devoid of nature, based on what our perception of what habitat isn't, isn't. So I think that that is really great, and how powerful it is when we listen to the community. And we take their lead. And I mean, my goal is to do more CO created work, or even do take a back seat, take a big bite of humble pie and just just take the follow the lead of a local organization that has been doing environmental justice work for years. And in the moment that I'm lucky enough to be invited into a conversation on a project that they develop, that they see that I'm relevant with regards to my expertise to help with I think that's going to be a really, really moving moment for me, because I think that's, that's how we're going to keep this going is that like, it's not just up to one group of people to keep conservation going. But for more and more people to feel like conservation is for them. It's something that not only can be involved in, but they something they can lead themselves. And I just like that idea, because so many more communities are going to be involved that weren't involved before.

Michelle Fullner  53:35  
Miguel, thank you so much for taking the time to come out here with me and my pleasure to share all your knowledge. I appreciate it.

Miguel Ordeñana  53:42  
Yeah, thanks for coming out here. It's it's a hot day, but But it's been fun. Yeah.

Michelle Fullner  53:50  
When we spend our days in our houses, or apartments, or driving in our cars, and we hear the noise of traffic on the street, and airplanes flying overhead, when we look up at night and don't see any stars, it's easy to think we're not in nature, that we're not connected to the natural world. But nothing could be further from the truth. As soon as we start to look a little bit more closely, we start to see the connections, the ways we're tied to this planet and everything on it. We start to see wildlife living right alongside us, and maybe even the things we can do to welcome and support these creatures. And if we keep looking, we start to realize that our cities might just be the most surprising wilderness of all. I want to give a big thank you to Miguel orden Jana for taking the time out of his weekend to hike Griffith Park and sit down in a bunch of pokey oak leaves with me for this interview. I learned so much and hope that lots of people are hearing this and are as inspired by Miguel's work as I am. If you want to know more More about the work Miguel is doing and some more fantastic community science projects with the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, check out nhm.org. Right now they've even got a project that involves using a mineral called zeolite. To remove lead from the soil in East LA where a battery recycling plant used to be Mihail told me about this project when we talked in August and the LA Times recently published a great article about it, which I'll link in the show notes, please go read this because it's an incredible story. But one of the things Miguel really likes about it is the way it shows community members that they can get great jobs in areas like mineral sciences, and then come back home and help their own communities. And there are also a bunch more great projects listed on nh m.org. So definitely check out the website. Okay, at the end of every episode, I always share something from my week. And this week, I actually have two things because it was a big week for me. So one is that I hiked Mount Diablo with OB Kaufmann, the author of The California field Atlas, which you should definitely go check out if you haven't yet. And on our hike, the wildflowers and the conversation were both amazing. So stay tuned for that episode in Season Three, but go see some wildflowers now if you can just don't step on them. And the other thing from my week is that I quit my job, which might be crazy. We're going to find out, I'm finishing out the school year. And then I'm going to try to make it doing a variety of side hustles and freelance work that I haven't totally figured out yet. But that I'm hoping will involve some public speaking, some outdoor education, some consulting, some writing, and of course, the podcast. So anyway, wish me luck. This is a big leap for me. I'll keep you posted on how this is all progressing when I check in for the season break. But for now, please send good vibes and thoughts of native wildflowers in oak trees and possibly also leads for any of the things I mentioned if you have them. I also just want to say thank you so much for being here for season two. Thank you for the beautiful support. You've shown me every step of the way. I've gotten so many kind messages this season from listeners telling me about the impact the show is having on their lives. And each and every one of those is something I treasure so thank you so much. And I can't wait to bring you more amazing guests and more learning that will help you connect with the natural world all around you in season three. Okay, I'll catch you on the midweek update. Until then get outside and stay curious. And I'll see you next time on Golden State naturalist bye.