Urban Ecology with Miguel Ordeñana (Part 1: P-22 Mountain Lion, Wallis Annenberg Wildlife Crossing, and Other Urban Carnivores)

Miguel Ordeñana  0:00  
To be honest, like we shouldn't be ashamed of ourselves for putting mountain lions to this breaking point. But I'm glad it's been a call to action. And I'm glad that certain people or a lot of people have responded in the way we should have a long time ago at trying to make these mountain ranges Whole Again, and giving them the open space that they need choosing to coexist with the ones that are sharing space with us, and yet investing in in their future, which is not just their future, but it's all of our futures because their presence means a healthy ecosystem. It means a optimal quality of life for the wildlife that live in all these ecosystems. And that includes us as well.

Michelle Fullner  0:37  
Hello, and welcome to Golden State naturalist, a podcast for anyone who's ever looked around a bustling city and wondered how much wildlife was there living just out of sight, or maybe insight if you also happen to be watching a coyote, use a crosswalk. I'm Michelle Fullner. And today we're examining places we don't normally associate with wildlife, because today we're talking urban ecology with Miguel orden Jana, whose voice you just heard. In this episode, we'll discuss behavioral plasticity a beloved Angeleno mountain lion named p 22. What it means to be an obligate carnivore. Why raccoons and coyotes are better adapted to city living than mountain lions ring cams, the Wallace Annenberg wildlife crossing, which is going to be the largest wildlife crossing in the world, and so much more. In fact, Miguel was so generous with his expertise and shared so much with me during our interview and on such a broad array of urban ecological topics that I could not possibly fit it all into one episode. So right now you're listening to part one, which is about all of the things I mentioned before. And in the next episode, part two, Miguel discusses a totally different set of topics relating to urban ecology. So that one will be about urban bats, and also about better and more inclusive ways of engaging with the human populations in our cities. When we talk about wildlife and conservation, you're not going to want to miss part two of this series. So make sure you're following the podcast wherever you listen, so you'll get notified when that episode drops. And if you'd like to see this podcast grow and reach more people, I hope you'll consider becoming a patron for as little as $4 a month, your support allows me to go out and get interviews in the field and buy necessary audio equipment and subscriptions. And now as Season Two winds down and I prepare for season three, I'm hoping to start reinvesting in the show to help it continue to grow and reach a larger audience because I believe that everyone deserves to be connected with the natural world around them, which is exactly what this podcast is all about. Plus, if you become a patron, you'll get access to all kinds of video and audio extras from the interviews as well as the ability to get your questions asked during interviews. This is a completely independently produced podcast, and every single patron helps a ton. So big thank you to everyone who's already supporting and making the show possible. If you'd like to become part of the Patreon community, you can find me at www.patreon.com/michelle Fullner. That's Michelle with two L's and Fullner is fu l l n er, there are two more quick, easy things you can do to help the show one is to simply share your favorite episode with a friend or family member, local scout leader homesteader or anyone who comes to mind when you're trying to decide who to take hiking with you this weekend. And the other thing you can do is just to leave a rating or review on Apple podcasts, those are so appreciated, I treasure every single one of them, I actually take a screenshot of all the reviews and save them in an album on my phone called podcast love in my photo app. And I look at them when I'm sad. So thank you to everyone who's already written one. If you want to see the places where these interviews take place along with my other outdoor adventures, you can follow me at Golden State naturalist on Instagram or Tiktok. My website is www dot Golden State naturalist.com. And if you go there and you click on store, you can check out T shirts and tank tops with a little bear with the poppies on them and be all set up for summer. Also just a reminder that this was going to be the last episode in Season two, but then I decided to split it into two episodes. So now it's the second to last episode in the season. After part two of urban ecology. I'll be taking a break to continue traveling for interviews and preparing for season three. And thank you for waiting a little longer than usual for this episode to come out. The trip to humble was a big success with seven interviews in the span of five days. All on topics that I know you're going to love when they come out in season three. But now let's get to the episode Miguel orden. Jana is an environmental educator and wildlife biologist. He works at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County as a senior manager in the community science office. As a community science Senior Manager Miguel promotes and creates community science projects and recruits and trains participants Miguel utilizes his mammal research background but Conducting urban mammal research in LA and leads the Natural History Museum's Southern California squirrel survey and backyard bat survey. Miguel serves as an advisor on a Jaguar Project in southwestern Nicaragua that he initiated in 2012. As well as a board member for the Friends of the Griffith Park and National Wildlife Federation. Miguel is dedicated to making science and access to nature more equitable with a goal of increasing the representation and retention of underrepresented communities within the environmental field. He holds a bachelor's degree in environmental studies from the University of Southern California and an MS in ecology from the University of California Davis. He's also the scientist who first discovered there was a mountain lion living in the second largest city in the country. So without further ado, let's hear from Miguel orden Jana on Golden State naturalist.

I met up with Miguel in Griffith Park on a warm summer morning, all the way back in August, Miguel decked out in a save la Cougars cap in a T shirt emblazoned with the words wildlife to watch and a cartoon p 22. pointed out various la landmarks and neighborhoods as we hiked a wide trail overlooking the city below us. Just beyond the Chaparral ecosystem of the park, we could see the LA River downtown LA and the city's suburbs sprawling as far as the eye could see. Once we'd walked far enough to get the lay of the land, we found a shady spot on the edge of a trail under some oak trees to sit down and dig into our conversation. As you listen Remember that despite Griffith Park being the largest urban wilderness municipal park in the country, we were still in LA. So you'll hear occasional sounds of the city but thankfully, none of them last for long. Let them draw you into the park above the city with me and Miguel sitting there. When we got settled under the Oaks with Mike's clipped onto our colors. The first thing I wanted to know was how Miguel became interested in ecology and the story of how he ended up doing his work with the Natural History Museum of LA. Yeah,

Miguel Ordeñana  7:16  
thank you for for coming out to Griffith Park, one of my favorite places to visit as an adult and when I was a kid, so I grew up right across the street from Griffith Park. It was just a really unique experience for me and even within my own family, it was a pretty unique situation like my family lived in Hollywood, more urban parts of LA and then later a lot of them moved to like Palmdale, Lancaster in the suburbs of LA and we live Yeah, right across the street from Griffith Park. And, and we moved there because my mom was going to school full time at La CC and then also at that later at USC, and then working full time in downtown. And so she knew la pretty well cuz she also grew up in LA. And she said, Yeah, let's move here. When we moved to LA after my family, my mom and my dad split like we lived with my aunt for a little bit in Hollywood in her apartment. And then when my mom kind of got on her feet, we moved to Griffith Park neighborhood Los Feliz literally the intersection of Griffith Park in Los Feliz Boulevard. If you're familiar with LA, we live in this, this big peach apartment building called the Rexdale apartments just drove past there. Yeah, almost everybody. It's hard to miss. And so it was awesome because Griffith Park was my local park. And like a lot of people have their own pocket park in their neighborhood. And I had that and my mom would take me out there and taught me how to play catch there. We'd have family picnics there, hiked to the Griffith Observatory. And I mean, I became learning quickly jaded, I was like, I don't want to hike anymore. She's like, learn me up there. Like you're not going to eat this, this little boy local. So we get to the top of it dragged you out. And we had these really all these accidental cows. We never went out there to identify plants or explore nature. But nature was obviously all around us. And we had an encounter with a snake once a rattlesnake and my mom was like, petrified. And like yeah, very protective of me, as you can imagine. And then also, coyotes would roam through our neighborhood that use Griffith Park, likely as their core habitat, and they would just roam through our neighborhoods. And so I'd have that close encounters like making me kind of continuously curious about how these animals are surviving in the city when my only other exposure was either going to the zoo or the Natural History Museum, or watching TV or cartoons that would usually showcase these larger MegaFon a lot of times from Africa or places like yellow So even if you'd watch a documentary or check out a zoo book at the library, a lot of those animals are pretty exotic and nothing really was being showcased from my neighborhood. So and even if a coyote would pop up in on TV, it'd be like a coyote in Canada or in coyote in Yellowstone or something like that. So anyways, the point is, is that it was just enough of an experience to keep me curious, and I'd have my dog bring in a baby possum, or my dogs would get sprayed by a skunk. So they have all these regular weird interactions with wildlife that I would think as positive or sometimes negative. And the most memorable one was when my first pet is a cat named whiskey was killed by a pack of coyotes. And so it was one of those moments where, I mean, before that, I was like, Okay, these are pretty cool. And then after the housing man, coyotes are something to be reckoned with, basically, like if you're a pet owner, and nobody was telling me like a lot of people tell you now like keep your pets indoors, right? Keep your dogs on a leash all those types of things.

Michelle Fullner  11:11  
I didn't grow up like that either. My cats were all outdoor cats. That's just the way we did it.

Miguel Ordeñana  11:16  
Yeah. So anyways, that's that's how I learned and, and it was a memorable moment. And I take that with me all the time. And as a relatable story, when people are like, really, like reluctant to keep their cats inside or keep their dogs on a leash. I'm like, yeah, like, it seems like they're happy out there. And they likely are. But there's consequences, like you're putting your cat at risk with coyotes out in the neighborhood or in the ecosystem, but also you're putting native birds and lizards that they eat that are not adapted to defend themselves against cats, and even the most lethargic fat cat is a really great predator. And that can do a lot of damage to the ecosystem.

Michelle Fullner  11:57  
I have to take a second here to talk more about cats. So I've had cats and loved them my entire life. And currently, I have a 16 and a half year old old lady cat who has been literally the singular consistent part of my living situation for almost two decades. So when I was 20 years old, my wonderfully spontaneous friend Ashley, and I decided to move to Seattle, kind of just for fun, but also so she could be closer to her Canadian boyfriend, hikers. Anyway, we both got jobs and worked and went to school up there. But we didn't know anyone besides each other. And she would often go visit her boyfriend in Canada on the weekends. At the time, I was in a long distance relationship that was a bad fit for me. So I was deeply lonely and writing a lot of sad poetry and asking big questions about things like gender identity and faith and heartbreak. And I didn't really talk about my problems with anyone because I liked to seem like I was doing okay, which was, of course, a problem because I didn't let anyone help me. So I did what any reasonable person would do in this situation and decided to solve my problems through pet ownership. I went to the shelter and got an adorable feisty little tuxedo kitten named Wendy, who became the most consistent companion I would have for the next 16 years. And this cat is incredibly shy. And my friends don't believe me that I have a cat because she hides whenever they come over. And they've never seen her. But every night as I'm falling asleep, she cuddles me under my blankets. And she reminds me my friend Ashley, who actually passed away more than eight years ago now. So my cat has been an incredible comfort in my life. Through that, and just all of the challenges and changes that a lot of us experience throughout our 20s and 30s. I could easily fill the time of so many podcast episodes, elaborating on all of that. But I wanted to tell at least a truncated version of that story. Because I want it to be clear that pets mean a lot to me. And this cat in particular means and represents a lot to me. But y'all despite all of this, she's still not allowed outside. And that's for two reasons. One, it's super dangerous for cats out there. outdoor cats only live an average of two to five years, while indoor cats typically live 10 to 20 years and two, according to the American bird Conservancy, outdoor domestic cats have contributed to the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals and reptiles in the wild. And they're also putting a lot of endangered species at increased risk of extinction. cats aren't native to North America. So our wildlife here didn't evolve with cats putting evolutionary pressure on them, meaning that they're just not adapted to these kinds of predators. And when we introduce housecats into our ecosystems here, they wreak havoc on our birds and other small animals, which includes even the most well fed cats, they just have a very strong drive to hunt, even if they're Not particularly hungry. So if you have a kitty, do your cat and all your local wild critters a favor by installing a CaTiO, or using a leash for any outdoor adventures, or just keep them inside. I didn't know any of this as a kid. And neither did Miguel when he lost his cat whiskey to that coyote, which is why he now tells the story about his cat to help both pets and wildlife while also relating to other people who love their pets. But

Miguel Ordeñana  15:27  
sharing that really personal story, a lot of times helps. And so anyway, kind of moving forward a little bit, I decided that I liked animals from a very young age, I didn't know really how to explain my passion. I mean, how it started, I don't know if it was watching certain movie or reading a certain book, but it was deep. And I, I always wanted to spend way longer at the zoo, or the Natural History Museum or just out on our porch looking at wildlife. He's my neighbor's backyard at night than the average person. And my mom was like, definitely kind of recognize that and nurtured that. So that's something that I had, I had a lot of privilege with that with respect to that I had my mom, but my family in general was very supportive of my passion. And wasn't. I mean, they didn't question me from time to time. And most of that, like the teasing, and all that stuff would happen, like with people, my kids my age, and my cousins and stuff like that. But all like my aunts and my dad and my mom, and we're all very, like, open to whatever I was passionate about. And it happened to be animals. So and that's not the case for a lot of people and right on up. So yeah,

Michelle Fullner  16:42  
and it's also not the case for a lot of people in LA to have that nature in the backyard or a lot of people in cities.

Miguel Ordeñana  16:48  
Exactly. Yeah, it's not very, very common. And that's not that was also not the experience of my family. And so they couldn't really relate to those connections that I had. And their parents weren't often taking them to the zoo, or the naturalist museum to the point where they were very familiar with what was in there. And then conservation issues facing African animals and those things that were kind of being featured in, in the zoo, or the museum setting. And so it was great. But it was kind of a passion that I kind of kept to myself, because I was teased and at school or within my own family. But I just kept nurturing in my own way as much as I could. But it didn't really allow me to be the most enthusiastic student until I had opportunities to study stuff that I was excited about. And so I was a mediocre student at best. And then my mom kind of recognizing that and it's like, hey, like, I gotta find something. And so she found this student volunteer program at the zoo, where if you got in you go every weekend for about six months or so. And you learn about animal zoo, ology, and about animals on exhibit, how to not only learn about their biology and their zoology, but how to talk about that to the public kind of learned science communication. And so I did that, and I had, like, really kind of soaked all that in, I loved it. And I excelled. I did really well on all the exams. And it gave me that confidence that hey, yeah, I guess I can be a good student, I can potentially do well, if I when I go to college,

Michelle Fullner  18:26  
so insightful of your mom to recognize that, like, if you had that experience that would trigger something for you. Yeah.

Miguel Ordeñana  18:33  
So yeah, again, kudos to her finding that and pushing me to do it. And honestly, to the zoo for giving me that opportunity. I was not competitive amongst all the other applicants. And they, they even told me that they're like, Hey, your grades aren't like, close to all the other applicants, but we're gonna let you in anyway, because we can see that you're really passionate about this. And they made the right decision. And so it left a big impact for me, that really kind of carried over into college. And I really did well in college and studied biology, and then switched over to environmental studies to have an interdisciplinary focus, because growing up in LA, and having all these random interactions made me want to not just study biology, but also more so human interactions with wildlife. And so that was kind of something I was always looking for. And so Environmental Studies was one of those majors that really kind of allowed me to explore that from a social standpoint, or from a wildlife conservation standpoint. And so that led to another random opportunity that I actually found myself when I was at USC from undergrad, I saw a poster on the wall to study abroad in Africa. And that was a dream of mine forever. I thought it was just an unattainable dream. And I applied and I was able to use the scholarship funding I had at USC to go towards that. And the course is counted, so that I was on track to graduate and so I was like, Hey, I'm going to do this. Like I said, wildlife management experience. I even know what that was. And we're not to Africa, my mom cried her eyes out at LAX, because she All she knows what people talk about on TV about Africa. And, and also, there was like a little bit of civil unrest at the time in Kenya, which is where I was going. But I went anyway. And it was really eye opening. It was obviously the most inspiring place to do field research on mammals, because they're the most iconic species out there, but also a really great place to take a deep dive into human wildlife conflict, because we were living in an area that was in within the territory of the Maasai tribe, who are local pastoralists indigenous to the area, and had constant conflict with with wildlife. And for me, previous to that I was taught like, oh, people who are killing wildlife are just really selfish people. And just you got to put the wildlife first they're endangered, some of them are endangered species can't afford that written, ignoring the whole social aspects of that. And so it was a really great opportunity to understand like, why the social injustice that the Messiah were facing and why they were retaliating against animals that were damaging their crops or using it as a way to send a message to the government that was basically treating the wildlife better than they were treating their own community did on tribal communities, and giving the wildlife access to water and not the tribes access to water to survive to feed their cattle, etc. And so it was great to see both sides of that, because even though it was all the way out in Africa, I think a lot of that still stays with me all those lessons, I learned about kind of really, genuinely hearing both sides of the of the story and not just jumping on the side of the animal and automatically, because even if I ended up kind of choosing the side of the animal, at least I have a little bit more empathy, I'm able to easily figure out a compromise that allow people to at least listen to my side of the story versus talking about wildlife or being protective about wildlife in a way that's really I wouldn't say isolating, but in a way that creates more of a separation between the conservation community and the social justice, community, etc. And another really unexpected moment was like the professors that work there. And that taught us all our courses were local Kenyans that had a non traditional route to their careers, a lot of them started late in their life had a lot of obstacles came from extreme poverty, had nobody in their families that did anything remotely similar to them, and eventually got their masters or their PhDs and are now leaders in their field. And so for me, as a person that also felt as an outsider, I was in this program with mostly all white students, it made me feel like this career was attainable. And I also had a role to play. And that these local Kenyans, professors had this uniques girl to not only study the wildlife that they grew up around, but also to talk to the local community members and really share how these wildlife species are relevant to their lives and important to their lives are worth coexisting with, because they're part of those tribes that grew up in those areas, and they have that local knowledge that someone dropped in from America or Europe would not have. And so anyway, that is something that was really inspirational for me, and I was inspired to go even further than my undergraduate career and get a master's degree because of that, because you're like, hey, if you really want to kind of make a career out of this, you gotta get at least a master's degree. And so that's what I did. But I was way behind all my peers. I wasn't in Boy Scouts, like a lot of my peers were I didn't have field experience, and other than that experience in Africa, but I had this this tenacity that in this drive that I think helped a lot and my mom's work ethic as someone who raised me and went to work in school full time, she didn't give me many excuses. And so I I immediately like Googled, like, what internships are there for my experience, and can't just kind of go to Africa and do that for for someone for free. And I ended up finding the Student Conservation Association internship. SCA is also it's known as and they gave me an opportunity that what they do is they pair you for with a wildlife research project with an agency in my case was the US Geological Survey. And I helped with the desert tortoise project. And so that gave me immediately hands on experience during fieldwork and Southern California on a threatened species, tagging them tracking them with telemetry, taking blood samples. And then eventually, like they hired me on full time. And I out competed some of my peers for those jobs that hadn't more experienced than I did. And so that was really motivational for me said, hey, I can if I work hard enough, and I pay attention and network, like I can make something out of this. And what they kept telling me that was like, you need a little bit more experience to be competitive for grad school, because that was my goal was going to get my master's degree and, and so I was able to get that experience and then was promoted to a crew leader with the on the project pretty soon after, and then moved over to another project, study bobcats in Southern California. And so that's where I got into urban ecology work, which is just definitely my sweet spot. And I've never left ever since. And so once I got that opportunity to move over to that project, I decided, hey, this is what I want to study. Once I get into grad school. This is what I want to study, I want to study urban carnivore research and conservation. And fortunately, like the people that I worked with previous to go into grad school, we're open to the idea and helped me accumulate data for the for my thesis, and it was, yeah, just the perfect fit for me. And I think a lot of people asked me like, why urban carnivores? And at the time, like, my answer is really simple as like urban carnivores are understudied. They're really interesting. They're elusive. And they're really interesting to me, because I didn't know what a bobcat was. And I never told anybody that. But when I first was told about this opportunity to study Bob Cats, I didn't know what that was, I knew what a Lynx was. So I was like, it's probably like something like a link. And then I just was immersed in the project. And I learned in the process of doing camera trap research, I learned about that technology for the first time and and that started so far back that there was actual film cameras and that we're using which is pretty funny to me. And, and so it was really cool to see that technology grow like firsthand because I've been using camera traps since 2005. Really off and on and, but also that the moment that was eye opening for me was yes, the bobcats and then learning about the bobcat in that way, an animal that I would soon after learn that was in Griffith Park in my neighborhood park. And we also had deer in the spine what a deer was, but I didn't know deer were in Griffith Park, I didn't know we had all these different types of squirrel species, including a tree squirrel species that is basically almost extinct from the LA basin. And all those little tidbits of information I think everybody deserves to know and are incredibly could be incredibly inspiring for especially young kids growing up in a city knowing that these is amazing species and especially amazing species that need our help are living right under our nose. So learning about the bobcat through that project was was great, but it's also kind of upsetting because I had to wait till I was almost a wildlife professional to learn what was living right under my nose as a kid you literally

Michelle Fullner  28:27  
went to Africa. For you knew what was in your yard exactly, which I think really reflects a lot of our experience all the like you said, you know all the documentaries you watch. Yeah, so much of it is centered on that megaphone of it. Yeah, is that you could put on a postcard.

Miguel Ordeñana  28:45  
Exactly. And so now like my mission is to make these local animals as famous as cool as those classic African animals like the elephant or the gorilla. After

Michelle Fullner  28:58  
getting his master's degree in ecology. Miguel worked on a few different projects, studying various wildlife species like ground squirrels, goshawks and spotted owls not that far from where I live in Northern California. But he really wanted to get back to his home city, which finally happened when he had the opportunity to study the impacts of wind farms on bats with US Forest Service, and soon he was living back in his home neighborhood of Los Feliz right next to Griffith Park. From there, Miguel were together with fellow biologists to start the Griffith Park connectivity study which was able to get some cameras on loan from the USGS and start fundraising with friends at Griffith Park.

Miguel Ordeñana  29:36  
And Griffith Park is about eight square miles and surrounded on all sides by urbanization by freeways on three of the sides on the south side, bordered by Los Feliz Boulevard and a sea of urbanization to the south. And so basically an island and so a lot of local wildlife biologists even urban ecologist really kind of wrote it off because they thought it's an island so It might be helpful for some species, but for wide ranging species like the ones you study, Miguel, it's really you're not going to really find much. And it's not really going to be a great resource for any wide ranging animal. And so I was like, Hey, I wasn't satisfied by that. And so we came together to kind of see what the connectivity situation was in Griffith Park, and if Griffith Park really was an island or not, and so we put cameras up on freeway overpasses that went over the one on one freeway, underpasses or a question tunnels that went under the five and the 134 freeways and just monitored them to see if wide ranging animals like deer, coyotes, bobcats that we knew existed in the park were able to successfully get in the park to reach the resources that they needed, like mates and new territories to disperse to.

Michelle Fullner  30:51  
And all of those cameras put up by Miguel and his team saw some incredible signs of connectivity, including the first images of the cat that would later become the world's most famous mountain lion. Hear that story and so much more from Miguel after a quick break.

Welcome back when we left off Miguel ordain Jana and a team of biologists were trying to figure out if Griffith Park in Los Angeles was an isolated island of inaccessible habitat, or if it was connected with other areas.

Miguel Ordeñana  32:04  
Within a few months, we got our answer. We got deer crossing over the Quinta Pass, which is the 101 freeway. We have the freeway over the bridges that went over the so there's little narrow sidewalks on these bridges. And they were like using those but sometimes just walking early in the morning or late at night, right through this long the road that went over the freeway. And then the question tunnels, we saw bobcats and coyotes and occasionally deer. So yeah, we got our answer. And it was really exciting to share that and, and maybe use that as inspiration, expand mammal research in Griffith Park, and even smaller open spaces that are being discounted and disregarded. So then in February 2012, we got the ultimate proof of connectivity, we had a mountain lion show up on one of our cameras, and I was the one in charge of kind of deciding on the placement of the cameras, checking the cameras, basically helping with the design of the study, and then kind of having a back and forth with my colleagues. And we decided that we wanted to monitor the crossings, but also locations just beyond the crossings that are on the edges of the practice just to see if these wide ranging animals are at least approaching the edges of the Griffith Park and what species are brave enough to do that. And so on one of those cameras that was right above the Ford Theater, which is on the western boundary of the park, right against the one on one on a ridge line, we got a mountain lion but so I was like looking at my my the footage as I did every time I would come back from the field, I was really impatient about it. I was like, I gotta see it now like and so I was always hoping to find a great fox or a bobcat and never ever found a great Fox so much later after the study was over. But we got Bobcats offense and really beautiful shots a lot of times and so I was just really curious and went through rabbit photo after rabbit photo, sometimes you get the grass triggering the camera and just going through all these photos, sometimes it's 1000 photos per session. And I had like my own process of doing that and I was kind of getting bored of it and all of a sudden this massive Puma butt comes across my computer screen I'm like, oh my god, I jumped out of my seat. is was it I at first was like Is that a great day because people would often walk their dog in front of my cameras. And I was like now like, as I went a few cat photos back came back to it and it was just undeniable it was an outline the tail the color, the size, the paw pattern, and then also the Park Service would later tell us like even with that photo alone we could tell it was a male or female because as little black dot and tail. The only males create after spraying the residue that they leave behind. So I had all this in front Meishan right then and there, and I was speechless. But then I was like, my first reaction. I gotta tell somebody I got so somebody, my colleagues and so then I look for my phone and it's not in my pocket and like, where's my phone? And it's in my car. So I ran barefoot two blocks to my car. No need for shoes, no time. And I called my colleague Dan and an errand. Nobody picked up. I left frantic voicemail messages. I called my wife just to tell somebody what I found. And she didn't pick up Oh, no. So I had all this really like important information, at least for me. It was like, I found Bigfoot or like Chewbacca for the first time, and nobody was there to listen. And literally, I say that a lot. But it's the truth. Because a lot of people would claim like mountain lions lived there. And there's zero evidence and evidence that would be shared would be like a photo of their cat or a cat, right or a coyote. And so it was just so incredible in the thoughts that went to mind. First, were like, is this animal gonna survive? How did it get here? How are people gonna respond to it being here. And so like, the next step was to let the National Park Service know, who had been studying our local mountain lions in the area since 2002. And say, hey, like, this is, geologically the eastern end, the Santa Monica Mountains here in Griffith Park. And there's a mountain lion here now. So there's a lot of reason for y'all to come out here. And they did not hesitate. They came right out right out here. They trapped in local department water power property within the park, near the reservoir, Hollywood reservoir, and they trapped him in three weeks. And they put a GPS tracking device on his neck, they took blood. And the blood was really important because the blood told them where he basically came from, because they had this long term study, they able to match his blood, his DNA with previous study animals and his family. Exactly. So they found out whose dad was Dad was p one, which stands for Puma one, okay, and to give you some context, mountain lion, Puma, Cougar, Catamount, Panther, they're all the same animal, it has so many names because of its wide range. And it goes through so many territories and cultures, and because of that has so many common names. But anyways, they use P to Sanford Puma and the number to Sam for the sequence in order of when the animal is captured compared to others. And so P one was the first one to be studied. He's a large one of the largest males ever studied. And his life basically summarizes all the unfortunate things that are going on with this population. So his dad p one would kill his own meats, he would kill his own offspring, he would meet with his own offspring, he would kill other males any would use the entire Santa Monica Mountains Recreation Area west of the 405, which is about 200 square miles of space. And typically, that's, that's totally normal. Most male mountain lions use about 200 square miles of space to have the resources that they need to have the space that they need. But this is not just any kind of territory, this area, unfortunately, is packed with other mountain lions because they have nowhere else to go. And so other males that would naturally be more distant from each other are now sharing the space and developing this this hyper territorial behavior. And that is definitely was the behavior of this individual p 20. Twos dad, p 22. was the name given to the Griffith Park mountain lion that I discovered because he was a 22nd. Puma found and studied, and they're now at over 100. Oh, to give you a sense of how many mountains it is p 22.

Michelle Fullner  39:10  
The only one in LA, like in the

Miguel Ordeñana  39:12  
middle? Yeah, mill of the city of LA. Yeah, he is. There was one in the Verdugo mountains that they were studying, which is Glendale Hall, right, just right on the edge of the next range over here can actually see it. And that one was studied for a while. Emile out there. I think his name yes. P 41. I believe his name was and so but other than that, yeah, those two individuals those are the kind of unique individuals between two is still alive today.

Michelle Fullner  39:41  
When I spoke with Miguel in August, P 22, was still alive, still living in Griffith Park. In fact, just the day before this interview, the LA Times published an article about the mountain lion being seen on some doorbell cameras in the Hollywood Hills close to Griffith Park. And whenever I think about this in review, I like to imagine that Pete 22 was watching that he saw Miguel and I walk into the park that day before ducking away out of sight, keeping his distance from humans as he always had. I know, it's unlikely it's a big park. And he was probably napping when Miguel and I spoke. But I still like to hold on to that idea, because as you may have heard, p 22. Passed away back in December, just a few months after I spoke with Miguel, I'll come back to that in a few minutes. First, I want you to hear the story of p 22. Is life

Miguel Ordeñana  40:31  
he was born in that range because of what his genetics kind of connect him to. She was born west of the 405 freeway, where his dad lived his entire life, or at least when he was studied. And so that means that P 22 had this difficult decision to make, which was to fight his dad or whatever resident male was in the area for that territory or leave. And he chose to leave. And that's a really dangerous decision as well, because to at least two other mountain lions tried to make that journey east and were killed immediately on the 405. And a lot more were killed and other crossings of the one on one. So for him to successfully not only cross the 405 freeway and then go through Beverly Hills, Bellaire Studio City, all these fancy neighborhoods then cross another 10 Lane freeway, like walk into Beverly and that's scary, then you cross and you have to cross Mulholland Boulevard, which is really dangerous windy road that you can't basically skip over and then crossing the 10 lane freeway the one on one to get into Griffith Park, was this a journey that no other Matlin had ever made and was so unfathomable for local scientists that they thought it was almost an impossibility for a mountain lion to reach Griffith Park ever. And so that's kind of where everybody's mindset was, because we're just following what what was generally accepted as the truth based on what we knew about mountain lions and their sensitivity to freeways, et cetera. And so sort of find him there to see the journey that he made. And then now to learn like that, not only did he make it, that he was able to survive there, and he was able to coexist with 1000s of people in this park every single day. We have houses populations that live here we have night hikers, we have people of all ages and hiking abilities, and using every inch of this part. And footage like to prove like how he's able to kind of deal with that. And I've have him like just hanging out in front of one of my cameras. And then less than 30 seconds later, there's a hiker right in front of that same camera. And so he's obviously has opportunities to interact with people, but he's choosing not to Yeah, and it shows that it is possible if you're given the opportunity to avoid us to have a little bit of refuge from us. We can coexist in a park that is a tiny, tiny fraction of the size of what a normal mountain lion needs as far as territory 200 square miles versus eight square miles here in Griffith Park. A fraction Yeah, and of that eight square miles. A lot of it's already taken up by residential property to 18 hole golf courses. We also have pony rides, train rides, picnic areas, theater, Greek, the Greek theatre, the observatory, a zoo, so yeah, even within the eight square miles, a lot of that is disturbed or developed. And so there's only so much wilderness that he's able to use and hide in, but he's still doing it. And probably up to like, last year, probably only a handful of people have seen him in the past 10 years. And then for whatever reason, last year, he decided to go through Silverlake neighborhoods to the South was really urban? A couple of times and a lot of people saw him. Yeah, we're still not sure why he did that. But have you ever were glad he went back?

Michelle Fullner  43:56  
Have you ever seen him in person? When he was captured

Miguel Ordeñana  43:59  
to put the collar on him? I was able to see him during that process, which you got to go for that. It was amazing. Yeah, like is is one of those moments where you're, you're seeing this animal in your local park that you grew up going to an animal that you'd never expect to see, especially as a kid, but even as a professional that has a really deep knowledge of urban carnivore ecology and an animal that was thought to be out of place. But then you see it in this grass, especially at the time was really brown dry grass, and he blended in perfectly. And it shows you that that this animal belongs here and we deserve to let him live here if he wants to. Mountain lions have been here since the Ice Age. And I work at the Natural History Museum also rented La Brea Tar Pits and we have records of mountain lands in our tar pits that go back over three 30,000 years and being found living alongside those other big cats, like the saber tooth cat, like the scimitar cat and the American lion, etc.

Michelle Fullner  45:12  
If you haven't listened to the La Brea Tar Pits episode of Golden State naturalist yet, check that one out next, the person I interviewed was Sean Campbell. And he actually discovered one of the very few mountain lions ever found in the tar pits. So mountain lions have a very long history in this region.

Miguel Ordeñana  45:31  
And this is the only large cat that survived the Ice Age extinction so far to survive the Ice Age extinction, I think, proves that it's doing its best. And it's been successful for all this time at surviving under less than optimal situations and environments. So yeah, this this Superman or superhero of the cat world, that can adapt to live in deserts, wetlands, coastal areas, mountainous regions, you name the habitat, and it's been able to survive there has finally met its match its kryptonite. And it's us, it's our freeways, it's our way of life. And as a result, it's, it's about to go extinct. After all that work. After all that evolution after all, that, at that adaptation, it really can't survive for much longer if we continue using this space and sharing this territory with it as we've was we have been and so thankfully, scientists have been taped gone at going out of their way to study this and confirm this with scientific data that they are not successfully crossing these roads and freeways. They're becoming genetically isolated. And they're also facing other dangers like rat poison exposure and hyper territoriality. at a level that's that's unsustainable and unnatural. And now even seeing the biological defects of inbreeding as well. And so all that's kind of coming to a head and is going to push them to extinction here locally, within the next 50 years, according to local research. And so we have this huge cloud over our heads. Pete

Michelle Fullner  47:12  
22 was sadly not exempt from the myriad threats facing mountain lions in highly populated areas. After making his incredible unlikely journey crossing to freeways and then managing to coexist with humans for a decade in a territory much much smaller than that of a typical male mountain lion or any mountain lion for that matter. Pete 22, who was elderly for a while mountain lion at around age 12 started to behave strangely, he killed a small dog when in the past, he had been able to survive on larger game like deer and coyotes. Wildlife officials saw this as a sign of deteriorating health and decided to capture and evaluate him when they did they found a cat 35 pounds under his usual weight with kidney disease, a parasitic skin infection and head trauma likely caused by a vehicle strike, among other problems and the decision for a compassionate unionization was made on December 17 2022. It was a heartbreaking day for people around the world who cared about V 22, including the many Angelenos for whom he had become an unofficial city mascot. But as tragic as the story is, I also find it really helpful how much people have rallied around the story of this cat and taken his life as a call to action.

Miguel Ordeñana  48:32  
To be honest, like we should be ashamed of ourselves for putting mountain lions to this breaking point. But I'm glad it's been a call to action. And I'm glad that certain people or a lot of people have responded in the way we should have a long time ago at trying to make these mountain ranges Whole Again, and giving them the open space that they need choosing to coexist with the ones that are sharing space with us. And yeah, investing in in their future, which is not just their future, but all of our futures because they their presence means a healthy ecosystem. It means a optimal quality of life for the wildlife that live in all these ecosystems. And that includes us as well. And so I'm really inspired by that I'm bummed that it took so long and that it took this desperate situation for us to finally make a change. But better late than never.

Michelle Fullner  49:23  
Probably the biggest most visible example of this kind of change comes in the form of the Wallace Annenberg wildlife crossing over the 101 freeway, which I asked Miguel about how is that going to help? Like, is that gonna help animals like p 22? Just maybe tell me a little bit about that.

Miguel Ordeñana  49:40  
Yeah, another benefit of p 22. story that's huge is that history has been so inspiring that he is been the catalyst for an important conservation movement that will save the local mountain lion population from extinction since 2002. The National Park Service has been gathering evidence that I has been very clear and pointing towards a certain location where wildlife have continuously tried to cross from both sides of the one one freeway from the north side and from the south side, because they've been GPS coloring a lot of animals, mountain lions, bobcats, coyotes. And so figuring out what that chokepoint is was the first step, but then getting the word out and making people understand the relevance and importance of it was the second step that was didn't get a lot of momentum, I guess you would say. And so even though this idea was clear, the solution was clear. Getting people behind it from diverse communities from from even a fundraising standpoint, was just not going well, or it's not super successful. And so I think the fundraising to that point was just to kind of continue to support that research, but not necessarily actually invest in the solution, the way it needs to be invested in. And so then came along Pete 22 story, and his story really summarizes all the struggles that a local mountain lion population has gone through, he has gone through a lot of misadventures, even after he made that incredible journey, crossing two freeways. So his story already started off with the connectivity issues that are my outlines faced by doing the journey that he did, and sharing that with the public, then him coexisting with the public 1000s of people every day, and doing his best to survive, but still not staying out of danger, because we couldn't stay out of his way by putting rat poison out in the ecosystem, and him nearly dying from that, or surrounding him under a house when he was taking a rest during the day and trying to stay at a site surrounding him with media helicopters and vans and, and wildlife officials. And fortunately, he survived and escaped that situation safely. But they're all lessons that we need to do better. And knowing that he's attached to this population to the West that is imperiled and almost going extinct. And so then kind of associating his story with theirs has really inspired people to want to figure out a solution so that not another mountain lion doesn't have to go through what p 22. Did or worse. And so it's been really great to see the people rally behind that from diverse communities, and also the campaign being led in a certain way that is proactively engaging different communities. Because everybody deserves to be part of this process. These open spaces are for all of us, not just for the communities that live there around those mediate neighborhoods. And I think more and more people need to recognize that before they can embrace it, and then want to protect it to know that it's there, first of all, and that it's for them, and then why the animals in there are important, and we want them to kind of continue to survive. And then all these other little tidbits of information that have popped up like LA being one of only two cities in the world that have large cats living within their city limits. By India, are you serious, they have leopards. And that's it. And so I think the fact that we have this Rare, unique situation. And this long, deep history with mountain lions here in Los Angeles, is a sense of pride for people that people are starting to develop and is being nurtured. I think that has now led to finally a successful campaign to build a bridge, which will be the biggest wildlife crossing in the world, and will save a lot of mountain lions, and this population from extinction, as well as other species that require connectivity throughout the landscape. And so I think it's just been a really inspiring process where artists authors, the media have all really done a great job at making this story between two story and the stories of all the other mountain lands more and more accessible. And having this wildlife celebrity here in Los Angeles that everybody is rallying behind is really helping a lot of species and the future of our local wildlife. And it just broke ground in April 20 April 2022, and is going to be built in 2025. That's so exciting. And it million dollars raised for a wildlife crossing. And for us to make such an investment in wildlife is just really, really sending a statement to the world and to other cities that also could do better at coexisting with wildlife that if la can do this and preserve the future their wildlife and invest in wildlife, other cities should be doing as well on creating their own bridges and improving connectivity throughout their cities. And also if a city like LA can coexist with the mountain lion, the Millah city, other cities, I hope will also think differently about wildlife not as always a threat. And there's some parts in the state where this is me the country where mountain lions don't exist anymore because of their perception of mountain lands, their relationship with mountain lands and just because you have you raised livestock is not an excuse. To not have wolves and not have mountain lions, because there are solutions. There are ways to coexist. And there's reasons why we should be coexisting.

Michelle Fullner  55:08  
I find it really encouraging that when people found out about p 22, they got excited. You know, it seems like that was the overwhelming response, like, did you have any backlash? Or people being like, oh, no, we can't have this cat here.

Miguel Ordeñana  55:19  
Um, there were a couple of people, I would say, I mean, in my inner circle, it was about five people. And almost all of those, each of those individuals when I talked to them about his ecology in general mountain lion behavior and said some of the statistics of a mountain lion attacks and they really like change their point of view, and especially as p 22, has continued to survive and coexist with people without incident seems like it's gone. Right? Yeah. It's, it's possible. And yeah, there are attacks here and there, but they're very rare and, and usually under really specific circumstances. And there's measures you can take to increase human mountain lion coexistence and improve that and things you can do to your own landscaping. And when you're out in a hike, if you see a mountain lion, what you can do, we

Michelle Fullner  56:10  
could easily do a whole episode just on coexistence. But let's just do a quick overview of what to do if you encounter a mountain lion, which is really, really unlikely. And the only person I know who's seen one in the wild, literally lived in a state park at the time. But it's still a good idea to be safe, so that you don't panic if you do CML. And okay, so this information is taken from a National Park Service page called your safety in Mountain Lion habitat. And it says if you see a mountain lion, the most important thing to do is to stay calm, not turn your back on the lion and stand up right, you shouldn't approach it or run from it, you shouldn't crouch down or bend over, you can either hold your ground or back away slowly. Again, usually, these animals want to avoid us. And even though I only know one person who's seen a mountain lion, I bet that a lot of us have been seen by a mountain lion. They just don't want to be seen by us. Anyway, I'll link this NPS page in the show notes in case you want to read more about it. So there's,

Miguel Ordeñana  57:17  
there's all these resources available. I think once people have those resources, especially basic information about mountain lions, how big they are, what their behavior is, and all that kind of stuff. I think a lot of people are more willing to do it and also having a course between two as his case study. Yeah, it's cool.

Michelle Fullner  57:37  
He's just cool. Yeah. And it's just, it's, it's something that people can rally around and be

Miguel Ordeñana  57:43  
proud of. That's great. That's been the case for sure.

Michelle Fullner  57:47  
I love that. How does the story of p 22. And other large carnivores, urban Mountain Lion, these kinds of animals, how does that compare with the other types of wildlife that are existing in big cities like this?

Miguel Ordeñana  58:00  
Yeah, mountain lions, I mean, are unique, because compared to other urban carnivores, and this is something that came up a little bit in my, my research for my thesis, which is that, although there are a lot of urban carnivores of varying size, and in ecological roles, they all respond differently to the urban environment. And a lot of that is because of their size, their behavior, what they eat. So a great comparison is a raccoon versus mountain lion, a mountain lion. Like all cats only eat meat, so they're obligate carnivores, unlike a dog species, or raccoon or Prasanna, kids are eating a variety of food resources. Some are even human subsidized research like garbage, leftover food, Fallen Fruit from your fruit tree in your yard. And as a result, they're able to take advantage of of more space, if you're a smaller individual, like a raccoon as well, you're less intimidating for one, two, the perception of a raccoon versus a mountain lion are a lot different. There's not seen as a big threat. And the other thing about size is that you don't need as much space to get the resources that you need to stay alive. That not only includes food, but also shelter. So a raccoon can live its whole life under our apartment complex or a dumpster. A mountain lion, because of its size, needs somewhere to hide that's big enough, obviously to fit its body, but also because it's this really large, controversial animal, and that is really perceived as a threat to people. And it has to live in an area that is also big enough to sustain a deer population. And deer are big animals that need a lot of space as well. And so all these things have to fall into place for a mountain lion to survive. And the other thing is the behavior so raccoon, although it's technically a solitary animal, it's very behaved Really plastic meaning that it can really adjust its behavior dependent to adjust to its setting same coyotes are very similar. And so they'll live together though, cooperate with each other, or tolerate each other at least, versus whereas a mountain lion are solitary and really do not like being around each other, especially when resources are limited. And as a result, you can pack in a lot fewer mountain lions, and you can raccoons. So if we ended up hitting a raccoon on the road or a couple on the road, that's going to have a smaller dent on that population than if you killed a couple mountain lions, that could be half of the population right there, especially in an urban area.

Michelle Fullner  1:00:41  
So many people have seen raccoons in there. So many people have seen like skunks and possums and all those animals, but I don't think I know anyone who's just like seeing a mountain likely walk. And

Miguel Ordeñana  1:00:54  
then as part of that behavioral plasticity, that mountain lions do not have that period. And bobcats have a little bit more than mountain lions, but not much more. And why that is limiting is because even if there is habitat around, they'll choose not to use it because they do not feel comfortable around a certain amount of people or a certain amount of human activity or a certain level of cover, especially during daylight hours. And so as you continue to develop I'm and not even just develop but like allow for more increased activity in an area, especially at night, when they're doing all their work. The animals are doing all their their nightly duties, you pushing them to come out later and later, which gives them less time to find mates to find food and all those types of things, which really is unfortunate. And mountain lions will not only have to come out later, or they might just have to live somewhere else or try to live somewhere else. And then that causes them to try and cross roads or freeways, etc. And then that's it for them. Right. So. So those are the key differences between urban Mountain Lion, which really never become an urban, I can have a different behavior versus like urban Kaylee's, that you've probably heard about read about that can adjust to the urban environment in Chicago and Los Angeles, where they're seeing walking through through neighborhoods waiting and understanding the traffic lights and then understanding what green versus red means and crossing safely and still silently, elusively using that space without people seeing that versus a mountain lion doesn't even feel comfortable attempting that. And it's a really traumatizing experience. I'm sure coyotes aren't 100% comfortable when they're in those situations. But somehow they're able to adapt. And there's a reason for them to push themselves and take that risk, because they can eat a lot of things that we have out and available in the city. Like our garbage that left the lid open. Our cats that we leave out are a small dogs that we leave out versus a mountain lion. That's not enough reward for that type of risk. And so those are the main big differences between how a mountain lion and justice city versus a coyote and that's why you hear less about mountain lions adapting and colonizing and maybe there'll be passing through, but doesn't mean that all of a sudden they're coming in, they're invading our space. And I think another thing about it is that is kind of getting blown up out of proportion is that mountain lions have been doing this for a long time. But recently, we've had advancements of technology and accessibility of doorbell cameras like ring doorbell cameras, and nest cameras, and even camera traps, like the ones I shared today are cheaper and easier to use, and people are putting out in the yards. And so more and more people are seeing them now and posting them on social media and creating this this story that mountain lions or coyotes or any of these animals are now invading our space are now more common in urban areas when they've been here for a long time. We just haven't noticed it because we don't we didn't have that doorbell camera. They're not

Michelle Fullner  1:04:13  
going to do it when you're standing there. Yeah, they're gonna they're gonna go when they don't think you're there, which is when the cameras Yeah, exactly.

Miguel Ordeñana  1:04:19  
Yeah. So I think that's another thing that that we need to consider.

Michelle Fullner  1:04:24  
Okay, there are so many more things left to consider, which will all be included in part two of this episode. So make sure to come back next time to hear more about urban ecology from Miguel. In the meantime, I would so appreciate it if you could share this episode, maybe with a city dwelling friend who cares about animals or ecosystems, or maybe someone who followed the story of p 22. Or anyone who might be inspired by hearing the story of a non traditional path to working with wildlife. Something interesting from my week is that my host Family was so tired today that we ate cereal for dinner on a picnic blanket in our front yard. Honestly, it was glorious. I'm envisioning a spring and summer full of yard dinner picnics. Okay, thanks for listening to the very end of the episode. I'll see you next time on another episode of Golden State naturalist bye.